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More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...

37 posts in PB Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2011-10-31 16:18:03.0Z
Bruce Armstrong Posted on 2011-10-17 19:46:45.0Z
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Subject: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users

They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-18 01:32:33.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Hi Bruce;

I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we have
only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new delivery
vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will be
WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
mobility scene as well.

I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB 15's
feature set.

Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...

Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users

They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Jim O'Neil Posted on 2011-10-18 17:25:59.0Z
From: Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
Message-ID: <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com>
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub>
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did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
straight face? :)

HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.

I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
developer/company. There's no question that native applications
deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
Silverlight came from.

Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.

On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Hi Bruce;
>
> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we have
>only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new delivery
>vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will be
>WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>mobility scene as well.
>
> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB 15's
>feature set.
>
>Regards ... Chris
>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
>"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>
>Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>
>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>
>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>
>They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
>If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-19 02:12:10.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com>
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Article PK: 452277

Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature ....
THE CLOUD.

Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs to
deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in various
Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and communicating
with different objects written in various languages.



"Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...

did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
straight face? :)

HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.

I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
developer/company. There's no question that native applications
deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
Silverlight came from.

Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.

On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Hi Bruce;
>
> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we
> have
>only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new delivery
>vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will be
>WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>mobility scene as well.
>
> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB
>15's
>feature set.
>
>Regards ... Chris
>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
>"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>
>Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>
>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>
>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>
>They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
>If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Bruce Armstrong Posted on 2011-10-19 02:40:42.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub>
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ICloud isn't about heterogeneous services. It just stores your platform
specific resouces from a location you can access from several devices.

Google's cloud is about using their apps, not about services.

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
> Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature .... THE CLOUD.
>
> Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs
> to deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in
> various Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and
> communicating with different objects written in various languages.
>
>
>
> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...
>
> did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
> straight face? :)
>
> HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
> to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
> once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
> clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.
>
> I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
> developer/company. There's no question that native applications
> deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
> invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
> multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
> one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
> less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
> again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
> Silverlight came from.
>
> Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
> ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
> them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
> a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.
>
> On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruce;
>>
>> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we > have
>> only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new delivery
>> vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will be
>> WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>> cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>> mobility scene as well.
>>
>> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>> thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>> guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB >15's
>> feature set.
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>> news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>>
>> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>
>> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
>> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-19 03:20:27.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <699556281340684457.759557NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com>
In-Reply-To: <699556281340684457.759557NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Article PK: 452281

FYI:
http://icloudev.com/2011/06/26/icloud-api-will-be-available-on-windows-later-this-year



"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
news:699556281340684457.759557NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...

ICloud isn't about heterogeneous services. It just stores your platform
specific resouces from a location you can access from several devices.

Google's cloud is about using their apps, not about services.

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
> Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature
> .... THE CLOUD.
>
> Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs
> to deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in
> various Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and
> communicating with different objects written in various languages.
>
>
>
> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
> news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...
>
> did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
> straight face? :)
>
> HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
> to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
> once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
> clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.
>
> I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
> developer/company. There's no question that native applications
> deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
> invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
> multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
> one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
> less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
> again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
> Silverlight came from.
>
> Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
> ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
> them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
> a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.
>
> On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruce;
>>
>> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we >
>> have
>> only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new
>> delivery
>> vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will
>> be
>> WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>> cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>> mobility scene as well.
>>
>> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>> thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>> guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB
>> >15's
>> feature set.
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>> news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>>
>> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>
>> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done
>> deal.
>> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Bruce Armstrong Posted on 2011-10-19 14:30:33.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <4e9e41fb$1@forums-1-dub>
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Article PK: 452289

That article means absolutely nothing. So they make an API available.
About the only thing on your Windows desktop that will be able use it is
iTunes. Apple is about the most closed system out there. That's why they
lost the PC wars to IBM and its clones.

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
> FYI: http://icloudev.com/2011/06/26/icloud-api-will-be-available-on-windows-later-this-year
>
>
>
> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
> news:699556281340684457.759557NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>
> ICloud isn't about heterogeneous services. It just stores your platform
> specific resouces from a location you can access from several devices.
>
> Google's cloud is about using their apps, not about services.
>
>
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>> Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature > .... THE CLOUD.
>>
>> Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs
>> to deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in
>> various Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and
>> communicating with different objects written in various languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message > news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...
>>
>> did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
>> straight face? :)
>>
>> HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
>> to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
>> once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
>> clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.
>>
>> I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
>> developer/company. There's no question that native applications
>> deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
>> invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
>> multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
>> one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
>> less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
>> again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
>> Silverlight came from.
>>
>> Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
>> ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
>> them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
>> a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we > >> have
>>> only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new >> delivery
>>> vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will >> be
>>> WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>>> cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>>> mobility scene as well.
>>>
>>> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>>> thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>>> guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB >> >15's
>>> feature set.
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>> news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>>>
>>> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>>
>>> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>>> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done >> deal.
>>> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>>> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Jim O'Neil Posted on 2011-10-19 03:20:30.0Z
From: Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
Message-ID: <8bgs971eml5vlisjfb6da3mnts7rhilimg@4ax.com>
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Article PK: 452282

iCloud will certainly expand but that's a good thing (perhaps?) for
the (at least) two other vendors on whom iCloud depends (I'll let you
guys do the Bing for that :)

Google kind of has two clouds, I suppose.. the entire Google Apps
ecosystem, but I'd say Google App Engine is a service-ish cloud. It's
focused on building Web 2.0 apps, but has morphed and really wants to
be an enterprise player.

On 18 Oct 2011 19:40:42 -0700, Bruce Armstrong

<NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:

>ICloud isn't about heterogeneous services. It just stores your platform
>specific resouces from a location you can access from several devices.
>
>Google's cloud is about using their apps, not about services.
>
>
>"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>> Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature .... THE CLOUD.
>>
>> Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs
>> to deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in
>> various Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and
>> communicating with different objects written in various languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...
>>
>> did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
>> straight face? :)
>>
>> HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
>> to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
>> once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
>> clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.
>>
>> I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
>> developer/company. There's no question that native applications
>> deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
>> invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
>> multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
>> one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
>> less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
>> again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
>> Silverlight came from.
>>
>> Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
>> ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
>> them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
>> a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we > have
>>> only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new delivery
>>> vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will be
>>> WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>>> cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>>> mobility scene as well.
>>>
>>> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>>> thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>>> guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB >15's
>>> feature set.
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>> news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>>>
>>> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>>
>>> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>>> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
>>> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>>> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Jim O'Neil Posted on 2011-10-19 03:17:18.0Z
From: Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
Message-ID: <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com>
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub>
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Not sure how you got from HTML5's promise (illusion?) of
interoperability to cloud..... but PB can do that now, WebServices.

The cloud really hasn't changed the interoperability story, maybe it's
made it more relevant to more people, but it's the same story that's
been around since CORBA, COM, etc., same Internet, same HTTP protocol.

PB has a bit of work to go on the RESTful aspect of things (which
based on conversations I had 2+ years ago about it frustrates the heck
out of me), but I can call a PB Web Service from pretty much any
client these days.


On 18 Oct 2011 19:12:10 -0700, "Chris Pollach"

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature ....
>THE CLOUD.
>
>Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs to
>deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in various
>Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and communicating
>with different objects written in various languages.
>
>
>
>"Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...
>
>did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
>straight face? :)
>
>HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
>to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
>once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
>clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.
>
>I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
>developer/company. There's no question that native applications
>deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
>invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
>multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
>one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
>less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
>again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
>Silverlight came from.
>
>Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
>ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
>them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
>a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.
>
>On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
><cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Bruce;
>>
>> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we
>> have
>>only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new delivery
>>vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will be
>>WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>>cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>>mobility scene as well.
>>
>> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>>thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>>guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB
>>15's
>>feature set.
>>
>>Regards ... Chris
>>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>>"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>>
>>Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>
>>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>
>>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>
>>They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>>Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
>>If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>>then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-19 11:40:16.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Hi Jim;

PB applications need to do more than just interact with a Cloud, they
need to be deployable there as well.

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Jim O'Neil" <jim.oneil@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com...
> Not sure how you got from HTML5's promise (illusion?) of
> interoperability to cloud..... but PB can do that now, WebServices.
>
> The cloud really hasn't changed the interoperability story, maybe it's
> made it more relevant to more people, but it's the same story that's
> been around since CORBA, COM, etc., same Internet, same HTTP protocol.
>
> PB has a bit of work to go on the RESTful aspect of things (which
> based on conversations I had 2+ years ago about it frustrates the heck
> out of me), but I can call a PB Web Service from pretty much any
> client these days.
>
>
> On 18 Oct 2011 19:12:10 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>>Yep ... INTER-OPERABILITY and the BIG reason for this required feature
>>....
>>THE CLOUD.
>>
>>Whether you look at Google Cloud, MS's or iCloud the key is that PB needs
>>to
>>deliver heterogeneous services that can operate/communicate in various
>>Cloud architectures. That also means SaaS with SOA working and
>>communicating
>>with different objects written in various languages.
>>
>>
>>
>>"Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>>news:55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com...
>>
>>did you say Apple and interoperability in the same sentence with a
>>straight face? :)
>>
>>HTML5 as the enabler for mobile is a pretty polarizing topic. I talk
>>to a lot of people about it, and half are on the side of I can write
>>once for all the devices; the other half are on the side of making as
>>clean and crisp a native experience for the end user that they can.
>>
>>I think it will be a matter of economics based on the individual app
>>developer/company. There's no question that native applications
>>deliver a better experience, but does company X have the resources to
>>invest in that or are they better off delivering a so-so experience in
>>multiple device markets verus a killer experience for just iOS? Not
>>one size fits all. And as more and more deliver HTML5 solutions with
>>less and less differentiating them, the native side will just kick in
>>again - that's just the cycle of innovation and where Flash and
>>Silverlight came from.
>>
>>Like it or not PowerBuilder is completely entrenched in the Windows
>>ecosystem, there's no way they can chase Apple (which wouldn't let
>>them in anyway) or Google/Android at this point. Even when there was
>>a concerted effort toward Java, the traction just wasn't there.
>>
>>On 17 Oct 2011 18:32:33 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>><cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we
>>> have
>>>only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new
>>>delivery
>>>vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8 applications will
>>>be
>>>WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser based applications and
>>>cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler for both the browser &
>>>mobility scene as well.
>>>
>>> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
>>>thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
>>>guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB
>>>15's
>>>feature set.
>>>
>>>Regards ... Chris
>>>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>>"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>>>
>>>Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>>
>>>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>>
>>>http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>>
>>>They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>>>Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done
>>>deal.
>>>If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>>>then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Jim O'Neil Posted on 2011-10-19 15:01:02.0Z
From: Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub>
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And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web Service from
PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.

There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues. If you
want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure, Amazon - you can -
TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put a pretty bow on it all, but the
tech is all there - we don't have to wring our hands and wait for
delivery. It's all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.

The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand the paradigm
shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud represents (scale out,
commodity hardware, latency, eventual consistency, etc.). I can
bring a PB Web Forms app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but
was it written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app will
run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the platform.

I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that doesn't invalidate
the cloud. I can take what's possible now in Web Forms and push that
to the cloud - your level of satisfaction with the result is tied to
the state of Web Forms not to cloud.


On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Hi Jim;
>
> PB applications need to do more than just interact with a Cloud, they
>need to be deployable there as well.


Troy Posted on 2011-10-19 17:35:18.0Z
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; delsp=yes
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com>
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Well said. While porting may be a short term option, very rarely does it
deal with the technical debt a lot of systems collect over their lifetimes.

Troy

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:01:02 -0500, Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>

wrote:

> I can
> bring a PB Web Forms app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but
> was it written FOR the cloud? Probably not


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-19 17:49:52.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <op.v3l0g4iwzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local>
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Hi Troy;

So what would you recommend then (for example, rewrite your applications
in something like WaveMaker)?

FYI: http://www.wavemaker.com/product/

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Troy" <me@here.com> wrote in message
news:op.v3l0g4iwzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local...
> Well said. While porting may be a short term option, very rarely does it
> deal with the technical debt a lot of systems collect over their
> lifetimes.
>
> Troy
>
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:01:02 -0500, Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I can
>> bring a PB Web Forms app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but
>> was it written FOR the cloud? Probably not


Troy Posted on 2011-10-19 18:32:25.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <op.v3l0g4iwzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <4e9f0dc0$1@forums-1-dub>
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My alter ego Truva above has the answer :)

Sorry about that.

Troy

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:49:52 -0500, Chris Pollach

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

> Hi Troy;
>
> So what would you recommend then (for example, rewrite your
> applications
> in something like WaveMaker)?
>
> FYI: http://www.wavemaker.com/product/


Troy Posted on 2011-10-19 21:48:26.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <op.v3l0g4iwzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <4e9f0dc0$1@forums-1-dub>
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Sooner or later you will have to rewrite. This time try and create a
change resistant application that observes dependency boundaries between
UI, Business layer, Data and is as location agnostic as possible. If you
can manage to do that then you should have less work to do when you
determine you want to take advantage of a technology change. The tech
exists now to do that and as an industry we have experience with it so it
shouldn't be guess work. That is something I really admire about shops
that have gone Agile, change is built into their process. They expect it.

Troy

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:49:52 -0500, Chris Pollach

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

> Hi Troy;
>
> So what would you recommend then (for example, rewrite your
> applications
> in something like WaveMaker)?
>
> FYI: http://www.wavemaker.com/product/


Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase] Posted on 2011-10-20 12:18:20.0Z
From: "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" <jason.fenter@teamsybase.com>
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <op.v3l0g4iwzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <4e9f0dc0$1@forums-1-dub> <op.v3mb6z1ezi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local>
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I'm sorry. I understand your comment about dependency boundaries and
all, but I don't quite follow you on a "change resistant application",
especially when you, in the same post, say that "change is built into
their process." Can you please explain what you mean by a "change
resistant application"? Thank you.

On 10/19/2011 4:48 PM, Troy wrote:
> Sooner or later you will have to rewrite. This time try and create a
> change resistant application that observes dependency boundaries between
> UI, Business layer, Data and is as location agnostic as possible. If you
> can manage to do that then you should have less work to do when you
> determine you want to take advantage of a technology change. The tech
> exists now to do that and as an industry we have experience with it so
> it shouldn't be guess work. That is something I really admire about
> shops that have gone Agile, change is built into their process. They
> expect it.
>
> Troy
>
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:49:52 -0500, Chris Pollach
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Troy;
>>
>> So what would you recommend then (for example, rewrite your applications
>> in something like WaveMaker)?
>>
>> FYI: http://www.wavemaker.com/product/


Troy Posted on 2011-10-25 16:36:53.0Z
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <op.v3l0g4iwzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <4e9f0dc0$1@forums-1-dub> <op.v3mb6z1ezi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <4ea0118c$1@forums-1-dub>
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Change resistant applications are applications built with certain
techniques that isolate areas that are likely to change over time. It
could be functionality, technology or even location specifics but that
area is put behind a facade so that it can be swapped out with minimal
impact on the whole.

Take a corporate print application for example. This print application
handles multiple types of payloads. Payload types are abstracted from core
logic. In other words, the application doesn't care what it assembles for
print. Each payload defines the rules of how it is printed. This lets us
define new payloads as the need arrives without messing with the rest of
the application.

The "change built into their process" part was a reference to Agile
development methodology. That entire methodology is built around the fact
that software requirements change over time as you work towards a
solution. What I was trying to say was that most of these folks naturally
avoid ridged applications because their development process allows for so
much change to creep into their solutions every sprint. In some ways they
are more forced to use the techniques above.

Troy

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:18:20 -0500, Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]

<jason.fenter@teamsybase.com> wrote:

> I'm sorry. I understand your comment about dependency boundaries and
> all, but I don't quite follow you on a "change resistant application",
> especially when you, in the same post, say that "change is built into
> their process." Can you please explain what you mean by a "change
> resistant application"? Thank you.
>
>
>
> On 10/19/2011 4:48 PM, Troy wrote:
>> Sooner or later you will have to rewrite. This time try and create a
>> change resistant application that observes dependency boundaries between
>> UI, Business layer, Data and is as location agnostic as possible. If you
>> can manage to do that then you should have less work to do when you
>> determine you want to take advantage of a technology change. The tech
>> exists now to do that and as an industry we have experience with it so
>> it shouldn't be guess work. That is something I really admire about
>> shops that have gone Agile, change is built into their process. They
>> expect it.
>>
>> Troy
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:49:52 -0500, Chris Pollach
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Troy;
>>>
>>> So what would you recommend then (for example, rewrite your
>>> applications
>>> in something like WaveMaker)?
>>>
>>> FYI: http://www.wavemaker.com/product/


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-19 15:26:15.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub> <55dr97hvvpbdt24obmgg1092m0kvlhb1ib@4ax.com> <4e9e31fa@forums-1-dub> <3vfs971114gbgcgncsm5j7g3ks3goaqukf@4ax.com> <4e9eb720@forums-1-dub> <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Hi Jim;

Unfortunately, I did not make it to Techwave this year and missed your
presentation. However, I did look at the slides and your sample code
provided. From what I can see you only have Cloud access and not a fully
deployable solution that most PB application shops could use. Your approach
also seemed to reply on various technologies being band-aided together.
While workable, I wonder about the real effort on large business
applications and the on-going maintenance costs - not to mention the new
level of knowledge required for today's PB developer in the field.

The only full and relatively easy cloud deployment that I can see for PB
currently is Appeon - as outlined in Accenture's presentation.

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Jim O'Neil" <jim.oneil@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com...
> And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web Service from
> PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.
>
> There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
> packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues. If you
> want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure, Amazon - you can -
> TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put a pretty bow on it all, but the
> tech is all there - we don't have to wring our hands and wait for
> delivery. It's all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.
>
> The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand the paradigm
> shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud represents (scale out,
> commodity hardware, latency, eventual consistency, etc.). I can
> bring a PB Web Forms app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but
> was it written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app will
> run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the platform.
>
> I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that doesn't invalidate
> the cloud. I can take what's possible now in Web Forms and push that
> to the cloud - your level of satisfaction with the result is tied to
> the state of Web Forms not to cloud.
>
>
> On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Jim;
>>
>> PB applications need to do more than just interact with a Cloud, they
>>need to be deployable there as well.


Truva Posted on 2011-10-19 18:29:06.0Z
Sender: 1c68.4e9f0485.1804289383@sybase.com
From: Truva
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
X-Mailer: WebNews to Mail Gateway v1.1t
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Well said. I believe part of that understanding needs to
include the metaphor of technical debt. While economics will
usually be the deciding factor of taking a short-term
solution verses a long-term one, the best decision cannot be
made without full knowledge of both approaches.

It is very easy to stack technology today to achieve a
desired result. This makes the short-term solution very
appealing in most cases when it comes to running one system
somewhere it was not designed to run. From what I have seen
most people do not fully understand or take the time to
understand the new problems brought on by the addition of
the stack but clearly understand what they can do "right
now". In such cases, the stack wins. It usually continues to
win because one of the worst things we do in I.T. is go back
and analyze prior decisions.

Do that and we might see that loading that C/S PB
application on Citrix caused ripple A,B,C,D that cost
w,x,y,z. Maybe we should have refactored and saved half the
cost long term.

Truva

> And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web
> Service from PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.
>
> There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
> packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues.
> If you want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure,
> Amazon - you can - TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put
> a pretty bow on it all, but the tech is all there - we
> don't have to wring our hands and wait for delivery. It's
> all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.
>
> The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand
> the paradigm shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud
> represents (scale out, commodity hardware, latency,
> eventual consistency, etc.). I can bring a PB Web Forms
> app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but was it
> written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app
> will run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the
> platform.
>
> I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that
> doesn't invalidate the cloud. I can take what's possible
> now in Web Forms and push that to the cloud - your level
> of satisfaction with the result is tied to the state of
> Web Forms not to cloud.
>
>
> On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi Jim;
> >
> > PB applications need to do more than just interact
> with a Cloud, they >need to be deployable there as well.


Troy Posted on 2011-10-19 18:30:35.0Z
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <4e9f16f2.2177.1681692777@sybase.com>
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Whoops..One of my aliases is posting again.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:29:06 -0500, <Truva> wrote:

> Well said. I believe part of that understanding needs to
> include the metaphor of technical debt. While economics will
> usually be the deciding factor of taking a short-term
> solution verses a long-term one, the best decision cannot be
> made without full knowledge of both approaches.
>
> It is very easy to stack technology today to achieve a
> desired result. This makes the short-term solution very
> appealing in most cases when it comes to running one system
> somewhere it was not designed to run. From what I have seen
> most people do not fully understand or take the time to
> understand the new problems brought on by the addition of
> the stack but clearly understand what they can do "right
> now". In such cases, the stack wins. It usually continues to
> win because one of the worst things we do in I.T. is go back
> and analyze prior decisions.
>
> Do that and we might see that loading that C/S PB
> application on Citrix caused ripple A,B,C,D that cost
> w,x,y,z. Maybe we should have refactored and saved half the
> cost long term.
>
> Truva
>
>> And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web
>> Service from PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.
>>
>> There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
>> packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues.
>> If you want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure,
>> Amazon - you can - TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put
>> a pretty bow on it all, but the tech is all there - we
>> don't have to wring our hands and wait for delivery. It's
>> all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.
>>
>> The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand
>> the paradigm shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud
>> represents (scale out, commodity hardware, latency,
>> eventual consistency, etc.). I can bring a PB Web Forms
>> app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but was it
>> written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app
>> will run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the
>> platform.
>>
>> I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that
>> doesn't invalidate the cloud. I can take what's possible
>> now in Web Forms and push that to the cloud - your level
>> of satisfaction with the result is tied to the state of
>> Web Forms not to cloud.
>>
>>
>> On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi Jim;
>> >
>> > PB applications need to do more than just interact
>> with a Cloud, they >need to be deployable there as well.


Jim O'Neil Posted on 2011-10-19 21:02:23.0Z
From: Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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That Truva guy has some real insight, you could pick up a thing or two
from him :)

On 19 Oct 2011 11:30:35 -0700, Troy <me@here.com> wrote:

>Whoops..One of my aliases is posting again.
>
>On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:29:06 -0500, <Truva> wrote:
>
>> Well said. I believe part of that understanding needs to
>> include the metaphor of technical debt. While economics will
>> usually be the deciding factor of taking a short-term
>> solution verses a long-term one, the best decision cannot be
>> made without full knowledge of both approaches.
>>
>> It is very easy to stack technology today to achieve a
>> desired result. This makes the short-term solution very
>> appealing in most cases when it comes to running one system
>> somewhere it was not designed to run. From what I have seen
>> most people do not fully understand or take the time to
>> understand the new problems brought on by the addition of
>> the stack but clearly understand what they can do "right
>> now". In such cases, the stack wins. It usually continues to
>> win because one of the worst things we do in I.T. is go back
>> and analyze prior decisions.
>>
>> Do that and we might see that loading that C/S PB
>> application on Citrix caused ripple A,B,C,D that cost
>> w,x,y,z. Maybe we should have refactored and saved half the
>> cost long term.
>>
>> Truva
>>
>>> And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web
>>> Service from PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.
>>>
>>> There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
>>> packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues.
>>> If you want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure,
>>> Amazon - you can - TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put
>>> a pretty bow on it all, but the tech is all there - we
>>> don't have to wring our hands and wait for delivery. It's
>>> all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.
>>>
>>> The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand
>>> the paradigm shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud
>>> represents (scale out, commodity hardware, latency,
>>> eventual consistency, etc.). I can bring a PB Web Forms
>>> app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but was it
>>> written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app
>>> will run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the
>>> platform.
>>>
>>> I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that
>>> doesn't invalidate the cloud. I can take what's possible
>>> now in Web Forms and push that to the cloud - your level
>>> of satisfaction with the result is tied to the state of
>>> Web Forms not to cloud.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Hi Jim;
>>> >
>>> > PB applications need to do more than just interact
>>> with a Cloud, they >need to be deployable there as well.


Troy Posted on 2011-10-19 21:51:45.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <4e9f16f2.2177.1681692777@sybase.com> <op.v3l205xmzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <mleu97dud1m654qu2gfoenhl8bchd3cs43@4ax.com>
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He doesn't drink beer often but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:02:23 -0500, Jim O'Neil <jim.oneil@microsoft.com>

wrote:

> That Truva guy has some real insight, you could pick up a thing or two
> from him :)
>
> On 19 Oct 2011 11:30:35 -0700, Troy <me@here.com> wrote:
>
>> Whoops..One of my aliases is posting again.
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:29:06 -0500, <Truva> wrote:
>>
>>> Well said. I believe part of that understanding needs to
>>> include the metaphor of technical debt. While economics will
>>> usually be the deciding factor of taking a short-term
>>> solution verses a long-term one, the best decision cannot be
>>> made without full knowledge of both approaches.
>>>
>>> It is very easy to stack technology today to achieve a
>>> desired result. This makes the short-term solution very
>>> appealing in most cases when it comes to running one system
>>> somewhere it was not designed to run. From what I have seen
>>> most people do not fully understand or take the time to
>>> understand the new problems brought on by the addition of
>>> the stack but clearly understand what they can do "right
>>> now". In such cases, the stack wins. It usually continues to
>>> win because one of the worst things we do in I.T. is go back
>>> and analyze prior decisions.
>>>
>>> Do that and we might see that loading that C/S PB
>>> application on Citrix caused ripple A,B,C,D that cost
>>> w,x,y,z. Maybe we should have refactored and saved half the
>>> cost long term.
>>>
>>> Truva
>>>
>>>> And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web
>>>> Service from PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.
>>>>
>>>> There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
>>>> packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues.
>>>> If you want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure,
>>>> Amazon - you can - TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put
>>>> a pretty bow on it all, but the tech is all there - we
>>>> don't have to wring our hands and wait for delivery. It's
>>>> all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.
>>>>
>>>> The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand
>>>> the paradigm shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud
>>>> represents (scale out, commodity hardware, latency,
>>>> eventual consistency, etc.). I can bring a PB Web Forms
>>>> app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but was it
>>>> written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app
>>>> will run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the
>>>> platform.
>>>>
>>>> I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that
>>>> doesn't invalidate the cloud. I can take what's possible
>>>> now in Web Forms and push that to the cloud - your level
>>>> of satisfaction with the result is tied to the state of
>>>> Web Forms not to cloud.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >Hi Jim;
>>>> >
>>>> > PB applications need to do more than just interact
>>>> with a Cloud, they >need to be deployable there as well.


"Paul Horan[Sybase]" Posted on 2011-10-19 19:29:21.0Z
From: "Paul Horan[Sybase]" <phoran AT sybase DOT com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <grot97p8k7bg3dc8irhqtdt7nnma12hggi@4ax.com> <4e9f16f2.2177.1681692777@sybase.com> <op.v3l205xmzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local>
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Up the dosage...

--
Paul Horan[Sybase]
http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com

"Troy" <me@here.com> wrote in message
news:op.v3l205xmzi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local...
> Whoops..One of my aliases is posting again.
>
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:29:06 -0500, <Truva> wrote:
>
>> Well said. I believe part of that understanding needs to
>> include the metaphor of technical debt. While economics will
>> usually be the deciding factor of taking a short-term
>> solution verses a long-term one, the best decision cannot be
>> made without full knowledge of both approaches.
>>
>> It is very easy to stack technology today to achieve a
>> desired result. This makes the short-term solution very
>> appealing in most cases when it comes to running one system
>> somewhere it was not designed to run. From what I have seen
>> most people do not fully understand or take the time to
>> understand the new problems brought on by the addition of
>> the stack but clearly understand what they can do "right
>> now". In such cases, the stack wins. It usually continues to
>> win because one of the worst things we do in I.T. is go back
>> and analyze prior decisions.
>>
>> Do that and we might see that loading that C/S PB
>> application on Citrix caused ripple A,B,C,D that cost
>> w,x,y,z. Maybe we should have refactored and saved half the
>> cost long term.
>>
>> Truva
>>
>>> And they are today - as a demo I did at TechWave of a Web
>>> Service from PB12 CLASSIC in Windows Azure attests.
>>>
>>> There are hoops to jump through currently, but they are
>>> packaging/deployment issues NOT core CLOUD tech issues.
>>> If you want/need to get to the cloud - Windows Azure,
>>> Amazon - you can - TODAY. Sure Sybase could stand to put
>>> a pretty bow on it all, but the tech is all there - we
>>> don't have to wring our hands and wait for delivery. It's
>>> all just a Windows Server in the sky after all.
>>>
>>> The biggest hurdle, IMHO, is that developers understand
>>> the paradigm shift (ok, yeah I said it) that the cloud
>>> represents (scale out, commodity hardware, latency,
>>> eventual consistency, etc.). I can bring a PB Web Forms
>>> app or a PB Web Service to the cloud TODAY, but was it
>>> written FOR the cloud? Probably not - just as a DOS app
>>> will run on Windows but doesn't actually leverage the
>>> platform.
>>>
>>> I realize that PB Web Forms is, well, .... but that
>>> doesn't invalidate the cloud. I can take what's possible
>>> now in Web Forms and push that to the cloud - your level
>>> of satisfaction with the result is tied to the state of
>>> Web Forms not to cloud.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 Oct 2011 04:40:16 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Hi Jim;
>>> >
>>> > PB applications need to do more than just interact
>>> with a Cloud, they >need to be deployable there as well.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-20 17:32:36.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <4e9cd731@forums-1-dub>
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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All;

FYI: http://html5center.sourceforge.net/

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message
news:4e9cd731@forums-1-dub...
> Hi Bruce;
>
> I think that the authors do have some good points - however, we
> have only had a terse look at W8's desktop capabilities under this new
> delivery vehicle. Personally, I think the prime delivery for W8
> applications will be WinRT with a return to C++. Then HTML5 for browser
> based applications and cross platform support. HTML5 will be the enabler
> for both the browser & mobility scene as well.
>
> I do like the authors statement ... "What the heck is Steve Ballmer
> thinking?". If I were Sybase, I would be looking to Apple and Google for
> guidance - especially in the area of inter-operability when building PB
> 15's feature set.
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
> news:1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
>
> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>
> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done
> deal.
> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Bruce Armstrong Posted on 2011-10-21 16:32:24.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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And now, we return back to the original topic:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/windows-8-a-bad-bet/61455

Bruce Armstrong <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>
> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done deal.
> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-21 16:49:13.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <1755750287340572745.274733NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <1743522670340907419.271650NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com>
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Hi Bruce;

Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along and
decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP (that's
British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up. So,
when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred flew over
to the Esso gas station across the road instead.

The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his suggestion.
Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every crowd".
:-)

AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7) style - the
user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S features
that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As far
PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take advantage
of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Bruce Armstrong" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1743522670340907419.271650NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...
> And now, we return back to the original topic:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/windows-8-a-bad-bet/61455
>
> Bruce Armstrong <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Couple of interesting articles from ComputerWorld:
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358985/The_Enterprise_Is_Unlikely_to_Jump_on_Microsoft_s_Metro
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358977/Metro_on_the_Wrong_Track_for_Many_Windows_Users
>>
>> They remind us that in order for Metro to be the 'death' of WPF and
>> Silverlight, the Metro UI must be widely accepted. That's not a done
>> deal.
>> If it doesn't gain traction and the desktop apps remain the primary Ui,
>> then WPF and Silverlight remain very much alive as they are.


Trevor Holyoak Posted on 2011-10-24 20:31:02.0Z
From: Trevor Holyoak <trevorh@uuinsurance.com>
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Yep, and the first thing most users are going to want to do if/when they
get the new OS is turn Metro off.

- Trevor

On 10/21/2011 10:49 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7) style - the
> user has the choice!


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-22 00:49:40.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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I see your point.

My thought though is that Metro is HTML5 and that is where the "global"
action is happening IT wise.



"Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
news:223236316340923533.484764NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com...

And story has something to do with that article?

I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista revisited,
then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
> Hi Bruce;
>
> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along and
> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP
> (that's
> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up. So,
> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred flew
> over
> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>
> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his
> suggestion.
> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every crowd".
> :-)
>
> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7) style -
> the
> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S features
> that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As far
> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take advantage
> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.


Troy Posted on 2011-10-25 16:19:55.0Z
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; delsp=yes
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
References: <4ea1a289$1@forums-1-dub> <223236316340923533.484764NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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How many failed OS releases has MS had? Enough to plan for them to fail? I
think not. It's all about positioning your applications to succeed. For
developers, I call it solution potential. It doesn't have to be one way or
the other. Only those who have already pigeon holed themselves need think
like that. How many years have we been telling folks to layer and
decouple? Those who did need not worry. Those who didn't hope for others
to fail so they don't have to.

Troy

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:33 -0500, Bruce Armstrong

<NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:

> And story has something to do with that article?
>
> I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista
> revisited,
> then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.
>
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>> Hi Bruce;
>>
>> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along and
>> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP
>> (that's
>> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up.
>> So,
>> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred flew
>> over
>> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>>
>> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his
>> suggestion.
>> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every
>> crowd".
>> :-)
>>
>> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7) style
>> - the
>> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
>> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S
>> features
>> that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As
>> far
>> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take
>> advantage
>> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-25 16:38:20.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <4ea1a289$1@forums-1-dub> <223236316340923533.484764NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <op.v3w0zgu9zi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local>
Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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That is why I am highlighting HTML5 as its already multi-vendor device
supported and the new wave for the web.
The bonus then becomes Metro. :-)

"Troy" <me@here.com> wrote in message
news:op.v3w0zgu9zi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local...
> How many failed OS releases has MS had? Enough to plan for them to fail? I
> think not. It's all about positioning your applications to succeed. For
> developers, I call it solution potential. It doesn't have to be one way or
> the other. Only those who have already pigeon holed themselves need think
> like that. How many years have we been telling folks to layer and
> decouple? Those who did need not worry. Those who didn't hope for others
> to fail so they don't have to.
>
> Troy
>
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:33 -0500, Bruce Armstrong
> <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> And story has something to do with that article?
>>
>> I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista
>> revisited,
>> then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.
>>
>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along and
>>> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP
>>> (that's
>>> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up.
>>> So,
>>> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred flew
>>> over
>>> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>>>
>>> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his
>>> suggestion.
>>> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every
>>> crowd".
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7)
>>> tyle - the
>>> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
>>> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S
>>> features
>>> that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As
>>> far
>>> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take
>>> advantage
>>> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.


Trevor Holyoak Posted on 2011-10-28 16:19:17.0Z
From: Trevor Holyoak <trevorh@uuinsurance.com>
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And the standards are projected to be finalized sometime in the 2020s...

- Trevor

On 10/25/2011 10:38 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> That is why I am highlighting HTML5 as its already multi-vendor device
> supported and the new wave for the web.
> The bonus then becomes Metro. :-)
>
>
> "Troy"<me@here.com> wrote in message
> news:op.v3w0zgu9zi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local...
>> How many failed OS releases has MS had? Enough to plan for them to fail? I
>> think not. It's all about positioning your applications to succeed. For
>> developers, I call it solution potential. It doesn't have to be one way or
>> the other. Only those who have already pigeon holed themselves need think
>> like that. How many years have we been telling folks to layer and
>> decouple? Those who did need not worry. Those who didn't hope for others
>> to fail so they don't have to.
>>
>> Troy
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:33 -0500, Bruce Armstrong
>> <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And story has something to do with that article?
>>>
>>> I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista
>>> revisited,
>>> then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.
>>>
>>> "Chris Pollach"<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along and
>>>> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP
>>>> (that's
>>>> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up.
>>>> So,
>>>> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred flew
>>>> over
>>>> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>>>>
>>>> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his
>>>> suggestion.
>>>> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every
>>>> crowd".
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7)
>>>> tyle - the
>>>> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
>>>> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S
>>>> features
>>>> that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As
>>>> far
>>>> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take
>>>> advantage
>>>> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.
>
>


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-28 17:56:54.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <4ea1a289$1@forums-1-dub> <223236316340923533.484764NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong-yahoo.com@forums.sybase.com> <op.v3w0zgu9zi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local> <4ea6e5fc@forums-1-dub> <4eaad605$1@forums-1-dub>
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NO .. now 2014 at the latest ... they moved up the time table on that many
moons ago!

BTW: most leading edge browsers are now 80% + compliant already.

"Trevor Holyoak" <trevorh@uuinsurance.com> wrote in message
news:4eaad605$1@forums-1-dub...
> And the standards are projected to be finalized sometime in the 2020s...
>
> - Trevor
>
> On 10/25/2011 10:38 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>> That is why I am highlighting HTML5 as its already multi-vendor device
>> supported and the new wave for the web.
>> The bonus then becomes Metro. :-)
>>
>>
>> "Troy"<me@here.com> wrote in message
>> news:op.v3w0zgu9zi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local...
>>> How many failed OS releases has MS had? Enough to plan for them to fail?
>>> I
>>> think not. It's all about positioning your applications to succeed. For
>>> developers, I call it solution potential. It doesn't have to be one way
>>> or
>>> the other. Only those who have already pigeon holed themselves need
>>> think
>>> like that. How many years have we been telling folks to layer and
>>> decouple? Those who did need not worry. Those who didn't hope for others
>>> to fail so they don't have to.
>>>
>>> Troy
>>>
>>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:33 -0500, Bruce Armstrong
>>> <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And story has something to do with that article?
>>>>
>>>> I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista
>>>> revisited,
>>>> then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.
>>>>
>>>> "Chris Pollach"<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>>
>>>>> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along
>>>>> and
>>>>> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP
>>>>> (that's
>>>>> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up.
>>>>> So,
>>>>> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred
>>>>> flew
>>>>> over
>>>>> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his
>>>>> suggestion.
>>>>> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every
>>>>> crowd".
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7)
>>>>> tyle - the
>>>>> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
>>>>> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S
>>>>> features
>>>>> that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As
>>>>> far
>>>>> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take
>>>>> advantage
>>>>> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.
>>
>>


Troy Posted on 2011-10-31 16:18:03.0Z
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Subject: Re: More on the supposed 'death' of WPF and Silverlight...
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Unfortunately I don't think it is going to matter when it is finalized.
Defacto standard is all that is needed. As soon as one vendor gets enough
functionality to swing the market it their way, it will become the
standard.

I hate it too. For us software types a good solid standard would help us
so much in this space.

Troy

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:19:17 -0500, Trevor Holyoak

<trevorh@uuinsurance.com> wrote:

> And the standards are projected to be finalized sometime in the 2020s...
>
> - Trevor
>
> On 10/25/2011 10:38 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>> That is why I am highlighting HTML5 as its already multi-vendor device
>> supported and the new wave for the web.
>> The bonus then becomes Metro. :-)
>>
>>
>> "Troy"<me@here.com> wrote in message
>> news:op.v3w0zgu9zi8j8o@bhm-is-td-l1.corporate.local...
>>> How many failed OS releases has MS had? Enough to plan for them to
>>> fail? I
>>> think not. It's all about positioning your applications to succeed. For
>>> developers, I call it solution potential. It doesn't have to be one
>>> way or
>>> the other. Only those who have already pigeon holed themselves need
>>> think
>>> like that. How many years have we been telling folks to layer and
>>> decouple? Those who did need not worry. Those who didn't hope for
>>> others
>>> to fail so they don't have to.
>>>
>>> Troy
>>>
>>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:33 -0500, Bruce Armstrong
>>> <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And story has something to do with that article?
>>>>
>>>> I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista
>>>> revisited,
>>>> then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.
>>>>
>>>> "Chris Pollach"<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>>
>>>>> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying
>>>>> along and
>>>>> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP
>>>>> (that's
>>>>> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming
>>>>> up.
>>>>> So,
>>>>> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred
>>>>> flew
>>>>> over
>>>>> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his
>>>>> suggestion.
>>>>> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every
>>>>> crowd".
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7)
>>>>> tyle - the
>>>>> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
>>>>> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S
>>>>> features
>>>>> that applications need to use to enable business user applications.
>>>>> As
>>>>> far
>>>>> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take
>>>>> advantage
>>>>> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.
>>
>>

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


Bruce Armstrong Posted on 2011-10-25 17:46:05.0Z
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Vista
ME
Bob
CE

Yep. Not so much plan for fail, but not a guarantee of success.

Troy <me@here.com> wrote:
> How many failed OS releases has MS had? Enough to plan for them to fail?
> I think not. It's all about positioning your applications to succeed.
> For developers, I call it solution potential. It doesn't have to be one
> way or the other. Only those who have already pigeon holed themselves
> need think like that. How many years have we been telling folks to layer
> and decouple? Those who did need not worry. Those who didn't hope for
> others to fail so they don't have to.
>
> Troy
>
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:33 -0500, Bruce Armstrong
> <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> And story has something to do with that article?
>>
>> I guess you're not getting it. If Window 8 ends up being Vista > revisited,
>> then targetting Metro apps would be a mistake.
>>
>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> Reminds me of the story where a group of Bee's were flying along and
>>> decided to take a rest. The lead Bee said "Lets stop at the next BP >> (that's
>>> British Petroleum - not what you were thinking) gas station coming up. >> So,
>>> when they got there the entire swarm stopped at BP - however, Fred flew >> over
>>> to the Esso gas station across the road instead.
>>>
>>> The lead Bee was questioned as to why Fred didn't follow his >> suggestion.
>>> Well, said the lead Bee .. there is always one Ess-o-Bee in every >> crowd".
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> AFAIF ... who cares! You can run W8 in Metro or Classic (W7) style >> - the
>>> user has the choice! The more important questions for me on W8 are:
>>> Architecture, plumbing, connectivity, etc changes to the key O/S >> features
>>> that applications need to use to enable business user applications. As >> far
>>> PB 15 is concerned in the GUI area - it needs to be able to take >> advantage
>>> of Classic or Metro mode when the user switches.