Sybase NNTP forums - End Of Life (EOL)

The NNTP forums from Sybase - forums.sybase.com - are now closed.

All new questions should be directed to the appropriate forum at the SAP Community Network (SCN).

Individual products have links to the respective forums on SCN, or you can go to SCN and search for your product in the search box (upper right corner) to find your specific developer center.

Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?

65 posts in Job Postings Last posting was on 2002-09-06 13:15:47.0Z
Satish Posted on 2001-11-28 22:03:03.0Z
From: "Satish" <satish@infsys.com>
Subject: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:03:03 -0600
Lines: 9
Organization: Infosys
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: bdsl.66.12.48.89.gte.net 66.12.48.89
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:355
Article PK: 12029

Folks,

How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl economy?

Any reply highly appreciated!


Tim Byford Posted on 2002-03-15 17:43:48.0Z
From: "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:43:48 -0500
Lines: 38
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Message-ID: <mDfX7nEzBHA.333@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: CPE0080c6f1a023.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 24.101.181.69
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:298
Article PK: 11998

Hi All,
I know its time for this thread to die, but I was just looking at Dice.com
and thought some of you may be interested in the search results.
Here are the numbers of jobs posted:

Powerbuilder: 216 I think this is increasing from the recent past.

Sybase DBA: 139
DB2 DBA: 158
Oracle DBA: 599
SQL Server DBA: 310 refined to MS SQL Server DBA => 88

Websphere: 546
weblogic: 475
EA Server: 6

Of course, names like Websphere and Weblogic are often just buzzwords from
agents that are in over their heads. For instance, 121 postings contained
both Websphere and Weblogic.

Regards,
Tim

"Satish" <satish@infsys.com> wrote in message
news:32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com...
> Folks,
>
> How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl
economy?
>
> Any reply highly appreciated!
>
>
>
>


Edward Muesch Posted on 2002-03-15 18:28:24.0Z
From: "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <mDfX7nEzBHA.333@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:28:24 -0500
Lines: 49
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Message-ID: <H9ijsGFzBHA.292@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: vzw-166-152-11-145.airbridge.net 166.152.11.145
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:297
Article PK: 19619

I have been looking for a gig for months and I have had more activity from
agents and on Dice in the last month then I have seen since last spring.

Thank God!!!

-EGM

Tim Byford <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mDfX7nEzBHA.333@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi All,
> I know its time for this thread to die, but I was just looking at Dice.com
> and thought some of you may be interested in the search results.
> Here are the numbers of jobs posted:
>
> Powerbuilder: 216 I think this is increasing from the recent past.
>
> Sybase DBA: 139
> DB2 DBA: 158
> Oracle DBA: 599
> SQL Server DBA: 310 refined to MS SQL Server DBA => 88
>
> Websphere: 546
> weblogic: 475
> EA Server: 6
>
> Of course, names like Websphere and Weblogic are often just buzzwords from
> agents that are in over their heads. For instance, 121 postings contained
> both Websphere and Weblogic.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>
>
> "Satish" <satish@infsys.com> wrote in message
> news:32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com...
> > Folks,
> >
> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl
> economy?
> >
> > Any reply highly appreciated!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Posted on 2001-11-29 01:41:23.0Z
From: Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:41:23 -0500
Message-ID: <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>
Organization: Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: user-2iveuvq.dialup.mindspring.com 165.247.123.250
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:354
Article PK: 19649

In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
says...

> Folks,
>
> How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl economy?

You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?

Mark


John Zhang Posted on 2001-11-29 18:42:18.0Z
From: "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500
Lines: 31
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Message-ID: <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: HSE-Toronto-ppp182231.sympatico.ca 64.229.98.10
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:353
Article PK: 19647

I think watever he is
did you read this posting:
Hello :

I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very much. But
last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to search
jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for easerver
at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword, there are
thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.


James

what do you think???

Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
> says...
> > Folks,
> >
> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl
economy?
>
> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>
> Mark


Mel Posted on 2001-12-01 06:10:56.0Z
From: "Mel" <abc>
Organization: 210.50.44.164
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: AspNNTP 1.50 (Advent 2000, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 01:10:56 -0500
Lines: 43
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.156.232.111
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:352
Article PK: 19642

I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million dollars skills
(Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at least for
right now.

All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market position is just a
farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search engines and
you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.

If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please show us the proof.

Regards

Mel


On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
in news.job_postings

John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>I think watever he is
>did you read this posting:
>Hello :
>
> I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very much. But
>last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to search
>jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for easerver
>at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword, there are
>thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
>
>
> James
>
>what do you think???
>
>Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
>> says...
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl
>economy?
>>
>> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
>> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
>> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>>
>> Mark
>
>

---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2001-12-01 16:53:18.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:53:18 -0500
Lines: 91
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.159.8.43
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:351
Article PK: 12024

Sure thing Mel.

If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making inroads into
production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's on
purpose... the real money is production (most people give away the
development servers for free).

BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is creating the
development environment. But, when you get done installing the 4,5,10 BEA
server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application server. That's
where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with that. And,
remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in another.

Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who are
implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in that market,
and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now, take your
skills to that customer... watch what happens.

Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!


Jonathan



--
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"Mel" <abc> wrote in message news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million dollars
skills
> (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at least
for
> right now.
>
> All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market position is just
a
> farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search engines
and
> you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>
> If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please show us the
proof.
>
> Regards
>
> Mel
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> in news.job_postings
> John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >I think watever he is
> >did you read this posting:
> >Hello :
> >
> > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very much. But
> >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to search
> >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for easerver
> >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword, there are
> >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> >
> >
> > James
> >
> >what do you think???
> >
> >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
> >> says...
> >> > Folks,
> >> >
> >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl
> >economy?
> >>
> >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
> >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
> >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> >
>
> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Anonymous Posted on 2002-04-25 22:05:03.0Z
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
From: Anonymous <noone@erewhon.net>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <Xns91FBACC8B9E40thomlambstarbandnet@199.93.177.77>
User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:05:03 -0400
Lines: 36
NNTP-Posting-Host: vsat-148-63-217-232.c004.g4.mrt.starband.net 148.63.217.232
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:283
Article PK: 19618

Jonathan,

What you have to say is good for Sybase ("the real money is in production").
However, when you visit these newsgroups you are most likely talking with
developers and managers. These are the front line people in IT that have
seen their jobs disappearing ove the past few years to VB, WebSphere, and
WebLogic developers.

As an advocate of Sybase and the International Sybase User Group, I spend a
great deal of my time trying to explain to the Powers That Be if you cut off
your nose (in this case the developer community) to spite your face (make
the quick buck now) you'll lose the loyalty of your existing customer base.
Maybe in its pursuit of new Portal application clients Sybase no longer
cares about the DBA or the Application developer. I'm not certain why this
would happen, since it seems obvious that Microsoft can make a bundle of
money keeping both sides of the coin in proper perspective, as well as
keeping a thriving opportunity base for application developers in Visual
Basic.

Even though all of us that use PB regularly know that it kicks VBs butt, and
that EA Server has much more potential than .Net, and one of the Web(????)
guys actually using Sybase technology, maybe we should just stand up and say
NO to Sybase and look for other opportunities. After all, we all need to
eat and support our families too.

Anonymous


James Liu Posted on 2001-12-03 16:12:41.0Z
Message-ID: <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:12:41 -0500
From: James Liu <jliu@jonview.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 92
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.176.221.138
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:350
Article PK: 19644

Hi, Jonathan :

I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad. But its market
is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every time I mentioned
'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder developers, 99
percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but everyone knows
what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other application servers,
but no one knows EAServer.
I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several years and I
really like it.

James

"Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:

> Sure thing Mel.
>
> If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making inroads into
> production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's on
> purpose... the real money is production (most people give away the
> development servers for free).
>
> BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is creating the
> development environment. But, when you get done installing the 4,5,10 BEA
> server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application server. That's
> where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with that. And,
> remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in another.
>
> Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who are
> implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in that market,
> and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now, take your
> skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>
> Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Baker
> eBusiness Division
> Sybase, Inc.
>
> "Mel" <abc> wrote in message news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million dollars
> skills
> > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at least
> for
> > right now.
> >
> > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market position is just
> a
> > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search engines
> and
> > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> >
> > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please show us the
> proof.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Mel
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> > in news.job_postings
> > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> > >I think watever he is
> > >did you read this posting:
> > >Hello :
> > >
> > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very much. But
> > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to search
> > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for easerver
> > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword, there are
> > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> > >
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >what do you think???
> > >
> > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
> > >> says...
> > >> > Folks,
> > >> >
> > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this slowdownl
> > >economy?
> > >>
> > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
> > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
> > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> > >>
> > >> Mark
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


John Zhang Posted on 2001-12-04 15:20:28.0Z
From: "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:20:28 -0500
Lines: 132
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Message-ID: <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: HSE-Toronto-ppp183217.sympatico.ca 64.229.101.234
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:349
Article PK: 12026

Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.

James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> Hi, Jonathan :
>
> I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad. But its
market
> is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every time I
mentioned
> 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder
developers, 99
> percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but everyone
knows
> what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other application
servers,
> but no one knows EAServer.
> I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several years and I
> really like it.
>
> James
>
>
>
> "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>
> > Sure thing Mel.
> >
> > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making inroads
into
> > production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's on
> > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away the
> > development servers for free).
> >
> > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is creating
the
> > development environment. But, when you get done installing the 4,5,10
BEA
> > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application server.
That's
> > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with that.
And,
> > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in another.
> >
> > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who are
> > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in that
market,
> > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now, take
your
> > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >
> > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > --
> > Jonathan Baker
> > eBusiness Division
> > Sybase, Inc.
> >
> > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million
dollars
> > skills
> > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at
least
> > for
> > > right now.
> > >
> > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market position is
just
> > a
> > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search
engines
> > and
> > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> > >
> > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please show us
the
> > proof.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Mel
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> > > in news.job_postings
> > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> > > >I think watever he is
> > > >did you read this posting:
> > > >Hello :
> > > >
> > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very much.
But
> > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to
search
> > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for
easerver
> > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword, there
are
> > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > >what do you think???
> > > >
> > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
> > > >> says...
> > > >> > Folks,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this
slowdownl
> > > >economy?
> > > >>
> > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
> > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
> > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> > > >>
> > > >> Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>


Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Posted on 2001-12-04 16:21:57.0Z
From: Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:21:57 -0500
Message-ID: <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>
Organization: Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: tom.scn.spawar.navy.mil 192.171.8.14
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:348
Article PK: 12025

In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
says...

> Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.

Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If you
like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.

We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
tanks" that lead a lot of companies.

Mark

--
Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com



John Zhang Posted on 2001-12-04 17:23:31.0Z
From: "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:23:31 -0500
Lines: 30
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Message-ID: <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: HSE-Toronto-ppp183217.sympatico.ca 64.229.101.234
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:347
Article PK: 19643

This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very much(of
course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but they
want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them EAServer
is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
John

Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> says...
> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>
> Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If you
> like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
>
> We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
>
>


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2001-12-05 23:55:31.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:55:31 -0800
Lines: 46
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.214.71.232
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:345
Article PK: 12022

We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the first
guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?

What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"

--
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very much(of
> course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but they
> want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them EAServer
> is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
> EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> John
>
> Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> > says...
> > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >
> > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If you
> > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> >
> > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > --
> > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> >
> >
>
>


Tim Byford Posted on 2001-12-19 18:49:07.0Z
From: "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:49:07 -0500
Lines: 73
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Message-ID: <eoxpE$LiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: CPE0080C6F1A023.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 24.101.181.69
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:335
Article PK: 12017

Jonathan,

I think Sybase is missing the fact that many people with IT buying power are
sorely uninformed about the industry. I see time and again, the IT director
or VP that was a mainframe guy when he was the worker. Now he's running the
budgets for a department where the technology is above him. His trusted
web-technology advisor is the kid, just out of school, brainwashed by
Microsoft, or the opposite, Linux and Perl. They will have a modicum of
success with their first apps, but fall down badly later on. They have
never heard of Sybase, and probably never will with Sybase's lack of
advertising and press releases.

If I, a PB User Group member and fan of Sybase, didn't even know about the
free EAServer 4.0 download, then do you think you are getting any audience
with non-Sybase customers?????

Tim

"Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
> reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the first
> guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>
> --
> Jonathan Baker
> eBusiness Division
> Sybase, Inc.
>
>
> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
much(of
> > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
they
> > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
EAServer
> > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
> > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > John
> >
> > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > says...
> > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > >
> > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If
you
> > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > >
> > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Tim Byford Posted on 2001-12-19 18:29:19.0Z
From: "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:29:19 -0500
Lines: 59
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Message-ID: <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: CPE0080C6F1A023.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 24.101.181.69
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:336
Article PK: 19636

If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.

Regards,
Tim

"Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
> reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the first
> guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>
> --
> Jonathan Baker
> eBusiness Division
> Sybase, Inc.
>
>
> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
much(of
> > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
they
> > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
EAServer
> > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
> > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > John
> >
> > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > says...
> > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > >
> > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If
you
> > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > >
> > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Jerry Siegel Posted on 2001-12-19 19:03:57.0Z
From: "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:03:57 -0500
Lines: 67
Organization: Data Sciences, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <fGbfDFMiBHA.360@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.153.49.2
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:334
Article PK: 12016

They _have_ been running full-page ads for EAS in ComputerWorld, InfoWorld,
eWeek, etc. What they really need is to get the message to the writers in
these publications so that they are included when a list of application
servers is mentioned.

Tim Byford wrote in message ...
>If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
>
>Regards,
>Tim
>
>"Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
>news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
>> We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
>> reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the first
>> guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>>
>> What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Baker
>> eBusiness Division
>> Sybase, Inc.
>>
>>
>> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
>> > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
>> > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
>much(of
>> > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
>they
>> > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
>EAServer
>> > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
>> > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
>> > John
>> >
>> > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>> > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
>> > > says...
>> > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> > >
>> > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If
>you
>> > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
>> > >
>> > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
>> > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
>> > >
>> > > Mark
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
>> > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


marc Posted on 2001-12-20 15:42:04.0Z
From: "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:42:04 -0500
Lines: 74
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700
Message-ID: <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: d1-3-1-0-9-0.a02.pitbpa01.us.ce.verio.net 130.94.192.34
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:333
Article PK: 12018

From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a few
years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet years it's
like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it was always
tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if IT
directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because they knew
they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This in turn
has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or might have
been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why don't I
switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...

"Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>
> "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
> > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
first
> > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >
> > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >
> > --
> > Jonathan Baker
> > eBusiness Division
> > Sybase, Inc.
> >
> >
> > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
> much(of
> > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
> they
> > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
> EAServer
> > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
about
> > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > > John
> > >
> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > > says...
> > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > > >
> > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If
> you
> > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > > >
> > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Andrew Linn Posted on 2002-03-05 01:30:46.0Z
From: "Andrew Linn" <oscar@dsa.com.au>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:00:46 +1030
Lines: 90
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: server.dsa.com.au 203.11.90.102
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:322
Article PK: 19631

We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills in the
workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that Sybase/PB is the
way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.

"marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a few
> years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet years it's
> like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it was
always
> tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if IT
> directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because they knew
> they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This in
turn
> has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or might
have
> been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why don't I
> switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tim
> >
> > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good.
That
> > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
> first
> > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> > >
> > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jonathan Baker
> > > eBusiness Division
> > > Sybase, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company
using
> > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
> > much(of
> > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
> > they
> > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
> > EAServer
> > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
> about
> > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > > > says...
> > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc...
If
> > you
> > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > > > >
> > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners,
Inc.
> > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Edward Muesch Posted on 2002-03-05 03:08:08.0Z
From: "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:08:08 -0500
Lines: 120
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Message-ID: <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: vzw-166-152-11-145.airbridge.net 166.152.11.145
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:321
Article PK: 12010

Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now and
due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills themselves.
That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot more
to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other languages,
web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.

Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB spots that
they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of resumes come
in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They have
enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of companies
insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather hackish
form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience. While
those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in the
recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances of
getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.

Just an observation.

-EGM

Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills in the
> workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that Sybase/PB is
the
> way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
>
> "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a few
> > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet years
it's
> > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it was
> always
> > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if IT
> > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because they
knew
> > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This in
> turn
> > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or might
> have
> > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why don't
I
> > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good.
> That
> > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
> > first
> > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> > > >
> > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jonathan Baker
> > > > eBusiness Division
> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company
> using
> > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
> > > much(of
> > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
browser),but
> > > they
> > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
> > > EAServer
> > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
> > about
> > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > > > > says...
> > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc...
> If
> > > you
> > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous
"think
> > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners,
> Inc.
> > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Nanda Posted on 2002-04-03 20:35:18.0Z
From: "Nanda" <nandaku@hotmail.com>
Organization: 4.21.179.36
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: AspNNTP 1.50 (Advent 2000, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:35:18 -0500
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.156.232.111
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:294
Article PK: 11995

Hi Guys
My client is moving all his application from Powerbuilder to Java .They never
thought of EA server .To stand in this market sybase should support other
application servers.PB is such a good tool ,i dont want it to die.

Nanda
---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2002-04-03 23:19:48.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:19:48 -0500
Lines: 36
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <Na6soc22BHA.298@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.159.8.64
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:293
Article PK: 19617

There are plans to have PB support other application servers (from the
client side) in the near future. But, there are no plans to have a server
side VM on other servers. In order to get PB to support other servers on
the server side, they would have to run a PB VM, which most Java only
servers can't do.

What I don't understand is why they didn't ask us about it. We have had a
PB VM in EAServer for a long time, and I'm sure we would have sold them one
if they wanted it. Some customer, in my experience, just wanted to move on
to the next new thing. (Of course, that costs lots of money, but they never
listen to me about that anyway. :-) )


Jonathan



--
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"Nanda" <nandaku@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Guys
> My client is moving all his application from Powerbuilder to Java .They
never
> thought of EA server .To stand in this market sybase should support other
> application servers.PB is such a good tool ,i dont want it to die.
>
> Nanda
> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Jerry Siegel Posted on 2002-04-04 14:46:18.0Z
From: "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com> <Na6soc22BHA.298@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:46:18 -0500
Lines: 49
Organization: Data Sciences, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <OflNXi#2BHA.186@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.153.49.2
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:292
Article PK: 19612

Please help me understand why Sybase needs to have cooperation from the
makers of the other application servers. Isn't the PBVM just another program
running on the same platform? It was not a problem with the late lamented
DPB. Maybe the PBSTUB part could be written in Java and talk to the rest via
JNI? And you might be able sell a series of adapters to plug in to various
J2EE servers to use their message queuing, connection pooling and
transaction handling services. As the mathematicians say, "a solution
exists".

Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message ...
>There are plans to have PB support other application servers (from the
>client side) in the near future. But, there are no plans to have a server
>side VM on other servers. In order to get PB to support other servers on
>the server side, they would have to run a PB VM, which most Java only
>servers can't do.
>
>What I don't understand is why they didn't ask us about it. We have had a
>PB VM in EAServer for a long time, and I'm sure we would have sold them one
>if they wanted it. Some customer, in my experience, just wanted to move on
>to the next new thing. (Of course, that costs lots of money, but they
never
>listen to me about that anyway. :-) )
>
>
>Jonathan
>
>
>
>--
>Jonathan Baker
>eBusiness Division
>Sybase, Inc.
>
>
>"Nanda" <nandaku@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com...
>> Hi Guys
>> My client is moving all his application from Powerbuilder to Java .They
>never
>> thought of EA server .To stand in this market sybase should support other
>> application servers.PB is such a good tool ,i dont want it to die.
>>
>> Nanda
>> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>
>


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2002-04-06 21:37:01.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com> <Na6soc22BHA.298@forums.sybase.com> <OflNXi#2BHA.186@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 16:37:01 -0500
Lines: 81
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <UqmfPRb3BHA.133@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: washdc3-ar2-4-3-185-110.elnk.dsl.gtei.net 4.3.185.110
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:286
Article PK: 11991

It's a money proposition, really. We could do it, but there isn't enough
money in the market to do it and make a profit. (And the stockholders get
really upset when we develop things and lose money, you know.)

We already offer an n-tier solution, using EAServer.

I know that's not "fair", but that's what happened.



Jonathan



--
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:OflNXi#2BHA.186@forums.sybase.com...
> Please help me understand why Sybase needs to have cooperation from the
> makers of the other application servers. Isn't the PBVM just another
program
> running on the same platform? It was not a problem with the late lamented
> DPB. Maybe the PBSTUB part could be written in Java and talk to the rest
via
> JNI? And you might be able sell a series of adapters to plug in to various
> J2EE servers to use their message queuing, connection pooling and
> transaction handling services. As the mathematicians say, "a solution
> exists".
>
> Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message ...
> >There are plans to have PB support other application servers (from the
> >client side) in the near future. But, there are no plans to have a
server
> >side VM on other servers. In order to get PB to support other servers on
> >the server side, they would have to run a PB VM, which most Java only
> >servers can't do.
> >
> >What I don't understand is why they didn't ask us about it. We have had
a
> >PB VM in EAServer for a long time, and I'm sure we would have sold them
one
> >if they wanted it. Some customer, in my experience, just wanted to move
on
> >to the next new thing. (Of course, that costs lots of money, but they
> never
> >listen to me about that anyway. :-) )
> >
> >
> >Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Jonathan Baker
> >eBusiness Division
> >Sybase, Inc.
> >
> >
> >"Nanda" <nandaku@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:cIyXR802BHA.216@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Hi Guys
> >> My client is moving all his application from Powerbuilder to Java
.They
> >never
> >> thought of EA server .To stand in this market sybase should support
other
> >> application servers.PB is such a good tool ,i dont want it to die.
> >>
> >> Nanda
> >> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >
> >
>
>


Nanda Posted on 2002-04-03 20:32:56.0Z
From: "Nanda" <nandaku@hotmail.com>
Organization: 4.21.179.36
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: AspNNTP 1.50 (Advent 2000, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <rC1h8602BHA.298@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:32:56 -0500
Lines: 124
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.156.232.111
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:295
Article PK: 11996

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:08:08 -0500,
in news.job_postings

Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now and
>due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills themselves.
>That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot more
>to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other languages,
>web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
>
>Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB spots that
>they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of resumes come
>in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They have
>enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of companies
>insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather hackish
>form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience. While
>those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in the
>recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances of
>getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
>
>Just an observation.
>
>-EGM
>
>Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
>news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
>> We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills in the
>> workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that Sybase/PB is
>the
>> way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
>>
>> "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
>> news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
>> > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a few
>> > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet years
>it's
>> > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it was
>> always
>> > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if IT
>> > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because they
>knew
>> > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This in
>> turn
>> > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or might
>> have
>> > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why don't
>I
>> > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
>> > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Tim
>> > >
>> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good.
>> That
>> > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
>> > first
>> > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>> > > >
>> > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Jonathan Baker
>> > > > eBusiness Division
>> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company
>> using
>> > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
>> > > much(of
>> > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
>browser),but
>> > > they
>> > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
>> > > EAServer
>> > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
>> > about
>> > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
>> > > > > John
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>> > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
>> zhangj@pendylum.com
>> > > > > > says...
>> > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc...
>> If
>> > > you
>> > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous
>"think
>> > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Mark
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --
>> > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners,
>> Inc.
>> > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] Posted on 2002-03-05 09:37:22.0Z
From: "Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase]" <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:37:22 -0000
Lines: 152
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: getreal.demon.co.uk 193.237.14.95
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:320
Article PK: 19627

Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on a PB
developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB, but
90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of 100s.
I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of the
poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
My 2?-cents
Simon

--
All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those of
my employer

"Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now and
> due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
themselves.
> That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot more
> to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other languages,
> web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
>
> Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB spots
that
> they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of resumes
come
> in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They have
> enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of companies
> insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
hackish
> form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience. While
> those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in the
> recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances of
> getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
>
> Just an observation.
>
> -EGM
>
> Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills in the
> > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that Sybase/PB is

> the
> > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> >
> > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a
few
> > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet years
> it's
> > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it was
> > always
> > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if IT
> > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because they
> knew
> > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This in
> > turn
> > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or might
> > have
> > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
don't
> I
> > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good.
> > That
> > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if
the
> > > first
> > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> > > > >
> > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jonathan Baker
> > > > > eBusiness Division
> > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company
> > using
> > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it
very
> > > > much(of
> > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> browser),but
> > > > they
> > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told
them
> > > > EAServer
> > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
benefit
> > > about
> > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > > > > > John
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> > zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > > > > > says...
> > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
etc...
> > If
> > > > you
> > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous
> "think
> > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
Partners,
> > Inc.
> > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Edward Muesch Posted on 2002-03-05 15:58:36.0Z
From: "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:58:36 -0500
Lines: 199
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Message-ID: <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.152.11.145
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:319
Article PK: 12008

Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial Institutions
and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New Jersey,
Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to get
work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability of
the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development caused
many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML which
wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent pool is
now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB still
advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.

Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have out-of-the-box
web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try to
put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop version)
and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with wizards
to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.

My 2 cents.

-EGM

Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on a
PB
> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB,
but
> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of 100s.
> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of the
> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
> My 2?-cents
> Simon
>
> --
> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those
of
> my employer
>
>
> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now
and
> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
> themselves.
> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot
more
> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
languages,
> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
> >
> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB spots
> that
> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of resumes
> come
> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They have
> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of companies
> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
> hackish
> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
While
> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in the
> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances of
> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
> >
> > Just an observation.
> >
> > -EGM
> >
> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills in
the
> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that Sybase/PB
is
>
> > the
> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> > >
> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a
> few
> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
years
> > it's
> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it
was
> > > always
> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if
IT
> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because they
> > knew
> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This
in
> > > turn
> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or
might
> > > have
> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
> don't
> > I
> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be
good.
> > > That
> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if
> the
> > > > first
> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
> > > > > > eBusiness Division
> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
company
> > > using
> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it
> very
> > > > > much(of
> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> > browser),but
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told
> them
> > > > > EAServer
> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
> benefit
> > > > about
> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > > > > > > John
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > > > > > > says...
> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it
is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
> etc...
> > > If
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous
> > "think
> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
> Partners,
> > > Inc.
> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Jerry Siegel Posted on 2002-03-05 16:42:10.0Z
From: "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:42:10 -0500
Lines: 223
Organization: Data Sciences, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.153.49.2
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:318
Article PK: 12009

<choir> Amen! </choir>

Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users, as
well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with technically
illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain the
benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a sexual
perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually run the
enterprise.

If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the tradition
of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor lock-in are
obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its current
niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.

Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
>Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial Institutions
>and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New Jersey,
>Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
>needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
>created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to get
>work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
>their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability of
>the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development caused
>many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
which
>wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent pool is
>now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
>requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB still
>advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
>
>Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have out-of-the-box
>web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try to
>put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop version)
>and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with wizards
>to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
>freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
>
>My 2 cents.
>
>-EGM
>
>Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
>message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
>> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on a
>PB
>> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
>> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB,
>but
>> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
100s.
>> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of the
>> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
>> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
>> My 2?-cents
>> Simon
>>
>> --
>> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those
>of
>> my employer
>>
>>
>> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
>> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now
>and
>> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
>> themselves.
>> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot
>more
>> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
>languages,
>> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
>> >
>> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB spots
>> that
>> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of resumes
>> come
>> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They have
>> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of companies
>> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
>> hackish
>> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
>While
>> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in the
>> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances
of
>> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
>> >
>> > Just an observation.
>> >
>> > -EGM
>> >
>> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
>> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills in
>the
>> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that Sybase/PB
>is
>>
>> > the
>> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
>> > >
>> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for a
>> few
>> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
>years
>> > it's
>> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it
>was
>> > > always
>> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder if
>IT
>> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because
they
>> > knew
>> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects. This
>in
>> > > turn
>> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or
>might
>> > > have
>> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
>> don't
>> > I
>> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
>> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Regards,
>> > > > > Tim
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
>> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be
>good.
>> > > That
>> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if
>> the
>> > > > first
>> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --
>> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
>> > > > > > eBusiness Division
>> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
>company
>> > > using
>> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it
>> very
>> > > > > much(of
>> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
>> > browser),but
>> > > > > they
>> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told
>> them
>> > > > > EAServer
>> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
>> benefit
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
>> > > > > > > John
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>message
>> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
>> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
>> > > > > > > > says...
>> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it
>is.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
>> etc...
>> > > If
>> > > > > you
>> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous
>> > "think
>> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Mark
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
>> Partners,
>> > > Inc.
>> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-07 15:53:21.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:53:21 -0500
Lines: 274
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.159.8.14
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:305
Article PK: 12002

Except for Microsoft. They can lock you in, and no one says a word.


Jonathan



--
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> <choir> Amen! </choir>
>
> Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users, as
> well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with
technically
> illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain
the
> benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a
sexual
> perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
> maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually run
the
> enterprise.
>
> If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
> web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the
tradition
> of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor lock-in
are
> obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its
current
> niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.
>
>
> Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
> >Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial
Institutions
> >and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New
Jersey,
> >Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
> >needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
> >created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to get
> >work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
> >their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability
of
> >the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development caused
> >many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
> which
> >wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent pool
is
> >now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
> >requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB
still
> >advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
> >
> >Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have out-of-the-box
> >web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try
to
> >put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop
version)
> >and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with
wizards
> >to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
> >freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
> >
> >My 2 cents.
> >
> >-EGM
> >
> >Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
> >message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on
a
> >PB
> >> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
> >> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB,
> >but
> >> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
> 100s.
> >> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of
the
> >> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
> >> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
> >> My 2?-cents
> >> Simon
> >>
> >> --
> >> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily
those
> >of
> >> my employer
> >>
> >>
> >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now
> >and
> >> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
> >> themselves.
> >> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot
> >more
> >> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
> >languages,
> >> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
> >> >
> >> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB
spots
> >> that
> >> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of
resumes
> >> come
> >> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They
have
> >> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of
companies
> >> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
> >> hackish
> >> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
> >While
> >> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in
the
> >> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances
> of
> >> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
> >> >
> >> > Just an observation.
> >> >
> >> > -EGM
> >> >
> >> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> >> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills
in
> >the
> >> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that
Sybase/PB
> >is
> >>
> >> > the
> >> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> >> > >
> >> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for
a
> >> few
> >> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
> >years
> >> > it's
> >> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it
> >was
> >> > > always
> >> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder
if
> >IT
> >> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because
> they
> >> > knew
> >> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects.
This
> >in
> >> > > turn
> >> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or
> >might
> >> > > have
> >> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
> >> don't
> >> > I
> >> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> >> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > Tim
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be
> >good.
> >> > > That
> >> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff...
if
> >> the
> >> > > > first
> >> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> > > > > > eBusiness Division
> >> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
> >company
> >> > > using
> >> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like
it
> >> very
> >> > > > > much(of
> >> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> >> > browser),but
> >> > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we
told
> >> them
> >> > > > > EAServer
> >> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
> >> benefit
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so
popular.
> >> > > > > > > John
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> >message
> >> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
> >> > > > > > > > says...
> >> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what
it
> >is.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
> >> etc...
> >> > > If
> >> > > > > you
> >> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the
imfamous
> >> > "think
> >> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Mark
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
> >> Partners,
> >> > > Inc.
> >> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


Brian Simmons Posted on 2002-03-07 19:53:33.0Z
From: "Brian Simmons" <bsimmons@centrasoft.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:53:33 -0500
Lines: 307
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <RvPBxLhxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dt123n34.tampabay.rr.com 24.92.188.52
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:303
Article PK: 12000

I guess because they market their products so well and their developers
don't feel abandoned.

And FWIW, I think a lot of people do complain about M$ locking someone in,
usually they're not the ones using the products though (i.e. Netscape, Sun,
Oracle, etc....).

--
Brian Simmons
bsimmons@centrasoft.com

"Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> Except for Microsoft. They can lock you in, and no one says a word.
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Baker
> eBusiness Division
> Sybase, Inc.
>
>
> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> > <choir> Amen! </choir>
> >
> > Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users, as
> > well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with
> technically
> > illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain
> the
> > benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a
> sexual
> > perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
> > maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually run
> the
> > enterprise.
> >
> > If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
> > web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the
> tradition
> > of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor lock-in
> are
> > obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its
> current
> > niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.
> >
> >
> > Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
> > >Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial
> Institutions
> > >and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New
> Jersey,
> > >Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
> > >needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
> > >created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to
get
> > >work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
> > >their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability
> of
> > >the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development
caused
> > >many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
> > which
> > >wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent
pool
> is
> > >now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
> > >requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB
> still
> > >advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
> > >
> > >Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have
out-of-the-box
> > >web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try
> to
> > >put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop
> version)
> > >and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with
> wizards
> > >to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
> > >freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
> > >
> > >My 2 cents.
> > >
> > >-EGM
> > >
> > >Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
> > >message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take
on
> a
> > >PB
> > >> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
> > >> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for
VB,
> > >but
> > >> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
> > 100s.
> > >> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of
> the
> > >> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
> > >> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
> > >> My 2?-cents
> > >> Simon
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily
> those
> > >of
> > >> my employer
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right
now
> > >and
> > >> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
> > >> themselves.
> > >> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a
lot
> > >more
> > >> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
> > >languages,
> > >> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
> > >> >
> > >> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB
> spots
> > >> that
> > >> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of
> resumes
> > >> come
> > >> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They
> have
> > >> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of
> companies
> > >> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
> > >> hackish
> > >> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
> > >While
> > >> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in
> the
> > >> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the
chances
> > of
> > >> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
> > >> >
> > >> > Just an observation.
> > >> >
> > >> > -EGM
> > >> >
> > >> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> > >> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills
> in
> > >the
> > >> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that
> Sybase/PB
> > >is
> > >>
> > >> > the
> > >> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> > >> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders
for
> a
> > >> few
> > >> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
> > >years
> > >> > it's
> > >> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but
it
> > >was
> > >> > > always
> > >> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder
> if
> > >IT
> > >> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because
> > they
> > >> > knew
> > >> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects.
> This
> > >in
> > >> > > turn
> > >> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may
or
> > >might
> > >> > > have
> > >> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so
why
> > >> don't
> > >> > I
> > >> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> > >> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Regards,
> > >> > > > > Tim
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in
message
> > >> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must
be
> > >good.
> > >> > > That
> > >> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the
cliff...
> if
> > >> the
> > >> > > > first
> > >> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
> > >> > > > > > eBusiness Division
> > >> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > >> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
> > >company
> > >> > > using
> > >> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like
> it
> > >> very
> > >> > > > > much(of
> > >> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> > >> > browser),but
> > >> > > > > they
> > >> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we
> told
> > >> them
> > >> > > > > EAServer
> > >> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
> > >> benefit
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so
> popular.
> > >> > > > > > > John
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> > >message
> > >> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> > >> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
> > >> > > > > > > > says...
> > >> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows
this
> > >> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what
> it
> > >is.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings,
conferences,
> > >> etc...
> > >> > > If
> > >> > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the
> imfamous
> > >> > "think
> > >> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Mark
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
> > >> Partners,
> > >> > > Inc.
> > >> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


David Tillotson Posted on 2002-03-07 21:29:26.0Z
From: "David Tillotson" <atillo@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <01c1c61e$2da52240$5c01a8c0@HO14>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:29:26 -0500
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.53.146.214
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:302
Article PK: 12001

Except the open source community, the Linux community, the Mac community
and most of the industry commentators. Microsoft don't get away with
locking you in because nobody complains, the get away with it because they
have a near monopoly on the desktop operating system so they can pretty
much do as they like. Sybase have to win developer's hearts because they
don't have that tight grip on another area ...


David Tillotson
Pickles Auctions
david.tillotson@pickles.com.au

Jonathan Baker [Sybase] <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in article
<PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>...
> Except for Microsoft. They can lock you in, and no one says a word.
>
>
> Jonathan


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-11 04:19:03.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <01c1c61e$2da52240$5c01a8c0@HO14>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:19:03 -0500
Lines: 46
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <j7o2dTLyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.159.8.62
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:301
Article PK: 19621

Sorry guys... I forgot to include the wink.

MS has an obvious competitive advantage (especially to the less than
diligent). I guess I thought it would be obvious to anyone on these forums
that I was just making a joke.

Anyway, I have to agree. In order to compete, you sometimes have to be much
better than the leaders. (And it doesn't help to have deep pockets either.)



Jonathan




--
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"David Tillotson" <atillo@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:01c1c61e$2da52240$5c01a8c0@HO14...
> Except the open source community, the Linux community, the Mac community
> and most of the industry commentators. Microsoft don't get away with
> locking you in because nobody complains, the get away with it because they
> have a near monopoly on the desktop operating system so they can pretty
> much do as they like. Sybase have to win developer's hearts because they
> don't have that tight grip on another area ...
>
>
> David Tillotson
> Pickles Auctions
> david.tillotson@pickles.com.au
>
>
> Jonathan Baker [Sybase] <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in article
> <PxmwtEfxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>...
> > Except for Microsoft. They can lock you in, and no one says a word.
> >
> >
> > Jonathan
>


Carson Hager [Team Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-06 00:26:10.0Z
From: "Carson Hager [Team Sybase]" <carson.hager@cynergysystems.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:26:10 -0600
Lines: 280
Organization: Cynergy Systems, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.150.236.141
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:315
Article PK: 19625

This simply is not happening. Basically every other application server out
there is Java based and there is no facility to incorporate the PBVM. The
only way I could see this happening is a PB->MSIL or PB->Java conversion but
then you have the problem of debugging. You won't be debugging in PB
anymore as the execution language is no longer PowerScript.


Carson

___________________________________________________________

Carson Hager
Team Sybase
Cynergy Systems, Inc.
Sybase Enterprise Application Studio Consulting and Training
http://www.cynergysystems.com

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> <choir> Amen! </choir>
>
> Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users, as
> well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with
technically
> illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain
the
> benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a
sexual
> perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
> maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually run
the
> enterprise.
>
> If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
> web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the
tradition
> of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor lock-in
are
> obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its
current
> niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.
>
>
> Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
> >Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial
Institutions
> >and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New
Jersey,
> >Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
> >needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
> >created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to get
> >work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
> >their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability
of
> >the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development caused
> >many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
> which
> >wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent pool
is
> >now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
> >requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB
still
> >advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
> >
> >Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have out-of-the-box
> >web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try
to
> >put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop
version)
> >and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with
wizards
> >to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
> >freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
> >
> >My 2 cents.
> >
> >-EGM
> >
> >Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
> >message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on
a
> >PB
> >> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
> >> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB,
> >but
> >> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
> 100s.
> >> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of
the
> >> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
> >> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
> >> My 2?-cents
> >> Simon
> >>
> >> --
> >> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily
those
> >of
> >> my employer
> >>
> >>
> >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now
> >and
> >> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
> >> themselves.
> >> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot
> >more
> >> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
> >languages,
> >> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
> >> >
> >> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB
spots
> >> that
> >> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of
resumes
> >> come
> >> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They
have
> >> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of
companies
> >> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
> >> hackish
> >> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
> >While
> >> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in
the
> >> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances
> of
> >> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
> >> >
> >> > Just an observation.
> >> >
> >> > -EGM
> >> >
> >> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> >> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills
in
> >the
> >> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that
Sybase/PB
> >is
> >>
> >> > the
> >> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> >> > >
> >> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for
a
> >> few
> >> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
> >years
> >> > it's
> >> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it
> >was
> >> > > always
> >> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder
if
> >IT
> >> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because
> they
> >> > knew
> >> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects.
This
> >in
> >> > > turn
> >> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or
> >might
> >> > > have
> >> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
> >> don't
> >> > I
> >> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> >> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > Tim
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be
> >good.
> >> > > That
> >> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff...
if
> >> the
> >> > > > first
> >> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> > > > > > eBusiness Division
> >> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
> >company
> >> > > using
> >> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like
it
> >> very
> >> > > > > much(of
> >> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> >> > browser),but
> >> > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we
told
> >> them
> >> > > > > EAServer
> >> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
> >> benefit
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so
popular.
> >> > > > > > > John
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> >message
> >> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
> >> > > > > > > > says...
> >> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what
it
> >is.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
> >> etc...
> >> > > If
> >> > > > > you
> >> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the
imfamous
> >> > "think
> >> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Mark
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
> >> Partners,
> >> > > Inc.
> >> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


Dave Fish [Team Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-06 01:25:02.0Z
From: dfish@sybase.com (Dave Fish [Team Sybase])
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:25:02 GMT
Organization: Sybase Professional Services
Reply-To: nospam_dfish@sybase.com_nospam
Message-ID: <3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 256
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.22.120.40
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:314
Article PK: 19628

But a PB client could talk to other app. servers. Maybe that is what
Jerry was talking about.

Regards,
Dave Fish [TeamSybase]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:26:10 -0600, "Carson Hager [Team Sybase]"

<carson.hager@cynergysystems.com> wrote:

>This simply is not happening. Basically every other application server out
>there is Java based and there is no facility to incorporate the PBVM. The
>only way I could see this happening is a PB->MSIL or PB->Java conversion but
>then you have the problem of debugging. You won't be debugging in PB
>anymore as the execution language is no longer PowerScript.
>
>
>Carson
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>Carson Hager
>Team Sybase
>Cynergy Systems, Inc.
>Sybase Enterprise Application Studio Consulting and Training
>http://www.cynergysystems.com
>
>
>
>"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
>> <choir> Amen! </choir>
>>
>> Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users, as
>> well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with
>technically
>> illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain
>the
>> benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a
>sexual
>> perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
>> maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually run
>the
>> enterprise.
>>
>> If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
>> web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the
>tradition
>> of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor lock-in
>are
>> obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its
>current
>> niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.
>>
>>
>> Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
>> >Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial
>Institutions
>> >and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New
>Jersey,
>> >Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
>> >needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
>> >created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to get
>> >work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
>> >their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability
>of
>> >the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development caused
>> >many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
>> which
>> >wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent pool
>is
>> >now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
>> >requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB
>still
>> >advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
>> >
>> >Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have out-of-the-box
>> >web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try
>to
>> >put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop
>version)
>> >and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with
>wizards
>> >to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
>> >freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
>> >
>> >My 2 cents.
>> >
>> >-EGM
>> >
>> >Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
>> >message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on
>a
>> >PB
>> >> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
>> >> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB,
>> >but
>> >> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
>> 100s.
>> >> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of
>the
>> >> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
>> >> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
>> >> My 2?-cents
>> >> Simon
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily
>those
>> >of
>> >> my employer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now
>> >and
>> >> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
>> >> themselves.
>> >> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot
>> >more
>> >> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
>> >languages,
>> >> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB
>spots
>> >> that
>> >> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of
>resumes
>> >> come
>> >> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They
>have
>> >> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of
>companies
>> >> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
>> >> hackish
>> >> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
>> >While
>> >> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in
>the
>> >> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances
>> of
>> >> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
>> >> >
>> >> > Just an observation.
>> >> >
>> >> > -EGM
>> >> >
>> >> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
>> >> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills
>in
>> >the
>> >> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that
>Sybase/PB
>> >is
>> >>
>> >> > the
>> >> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for
>a
>> >> few
>> >> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
>> >years
>> >> > it's
>> >> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it
>> >was
>> >> > > always
>> >> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder
>if
>> >IT
>> >> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because
>> they
>> >> > knew
>> >> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects.
>This
>> >in
>> >> > > turn
>> >> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or
>> >might
>> >> > > have
>> >> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
>> >> don't
>> >> > I
>> >> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
>> >> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Regards,
>> >> > > > > Tim
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be
>> >good.
>> >> > > That
>> >> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff...
>if
>> >> the
>> >> > > > first
>> >> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > --
>> >> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
>> >> > > > > > eBusiness Division
>> >> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
>> >company
>> >> > > using
>> >> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like
>it
>> >> very
>> >> > > > > much(of
>> >> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
>> >> > browser),but
>> >> > > > > they
>> >> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we
>told
>> >> them
>> >> > > > > EAServer
>> >> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
>> >> benefit
>> >> > > > about
>> >> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so
>popular.
>> >> > > > > > > John
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>> >message
>> >> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
>> >> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
>> >> > > > > > > > says...
>> >> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> >> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what
>it
>> >is.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
>> >> etc...
>> >> > > If
>> >> > > > > you
>> >> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the
>imfamous
>> >> > "think
>> >> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Mark
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > --
>> >> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
>> >> Partners,
>> >> > > Inc.
>> >> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


Carson Hager [Team Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-06 15:44:30.0Z
From: "Carson Hager [Team Sybase]" <carson.hager@cynergysystems.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com> <3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:44:30 -0600
Lines: 350
Organization: Cynergy Systems, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <8XTzlZSxBHA.318@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.150.236.141
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:308
Article PK: 12004

You're probably right. Sorry, I've been involved in that other discussion a
little too much recently. :)


Carson

___________________________________________________________

Carson Hager
Team Sybase
Cynergy Systems, Inc.
Sybase Enterprise Application Studio Consulting and Training
http://www.cynergysystems.com

"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77...
> But a PB client could talk to other app. servers. Maybe that is what
> Jerry was talking about.
>
> Regards,
> Dave Fish [TeamSybase]
>
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:26:10 -0600, "Carson Hager [Team Sybase]"
> <carson.hager@cynergysystems.com> wrote:
>
> >This simply is not happening. Basically every other application server
out
> >there is Java based and there is no facility to incorporate the PBVM.
The
> >only way I could see this happening is a PB->MSIL or PB->Java conversion
but
> >then you have the problem of debugging. You won't be debugging in PB
> >anymore as the execution language is no longer PowerScript.
> >
> >
> >Carson
> >
> >___________________________________________________________
> >
> >Carson Hager
> >Team Sybase
> >Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> >Sybase Enterprise Application Studio Consulting and Training
> >http://www.cynergysystems.com
> >
> >
> >
> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >news:ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> <choir> Amen! </choir>
> >>
> >> Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users,
as
> >> well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with
> >technically
> >> illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain
> >the
> >> benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a
> >sexual
> >> perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
> >> maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually
run
> >the
> >> enterprise.
> >>
> >> If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
> >> web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the
> >tradition
> >> of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor
lock-in
> >are
> >> obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its
> >current
> >> niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.
> >>
> >>
> >> Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
> >> >Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial
> >Institutions
> >> >and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New
> >Jersey,
> >> >Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
> >> >needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
> >> >created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to
get
> >> >work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who
blamed
> >> >their tools for not doing a very good job together with the
instability
> >of
> >> >the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development
caused
> >> >many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
> >> which
> >> >wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent
pool
> >is
> >> >now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
> >> >requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB
> >still
> >> >advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
> >> >
> >> >Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have
out-of-the-box
> >> >web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't
try
> >to
> >> >put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop
> >version)
> >> >and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with
> >wizards
> >> >to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize
that
> >> >freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
> >> >
> >> >My 2 cents.
> >> >
> >> >-EGM
> >> >
> >> >Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
> >> >message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take
on
> >a
> >> >PB
> >> >> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
> >> >> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for
VB,
> >> >but
> >> >> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
> >> 100s.
> >> >> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot
of
> >the
> >> >> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
> >> >> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
> >> >> My 2?-cents
> >> >> Simon
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily
> >those
> >> >of
> >> >> my employer
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right
now
> >> >and
> >> >> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
> >> >> themselves.
> >> >> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a
lot
> >> >more
> >> >> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
> >> >languages,
> >> >> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB
> >spots
> >> >> that
> >> >> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of
> >resumes
> >> >> come
> >> >> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They
> >have
> >> >> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of
> >companies
> >> >> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is
rather
> >> >> hackish
> >> >> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated
experience.
> >> >While
> >> >> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon
in
> >the
> >> >> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the
chances
> >> of
> >> >> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Just an observation.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -EGM
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB
skills
> >in
> >> >the
> >> >> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that
> >Sybase/PB
> >> >is
> >> >>
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders
for
> >a
> >> >> few
> >> >> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in
internet
> >> >years
> >> >> > it's
> >> >> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but
it
> >> >was
> >> >> > > always
> >> >> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I
wonder
> >if
> >> >IT
> >> >> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL
because
> >> they
> >> >> > knew
> >> >> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects.
> >This
> >> >in
> >> >> > > turn
> >> >> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may
or
> >> >might
> >> >> > > have
> >> >> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so
why
> >> >> don't
> >> >> > I
> >> >> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> >> >> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Regards,
> >> >> > > > > Tim
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in
message
> >> >> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must
be
> >> >good.
> >> >> > > That
> >> >> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the
cliff...
> >if
> >> >> the
> >> >> > > > first
> >> >> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > --
> >> >> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> >> > > > > > eBusiness Division
> >> >> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
> >> >company
> >> >> > > using
> >> >> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client
like
> >it
> >> >> very
> >> >> > > > > much(of
> >> >> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> >> >> > browser),but
> >> >> > > > > they
> >> >> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we
> >told
> >> >> them
> >> >> > > > > EAServer
> >> >> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and
the
> >> >> benefit
> >> >> > > > about
> >> >> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so
> >popular.
> >> >> > > > > > > John
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> >> >message
> >> >> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> >> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
> >> >> > > > > > > > says...
> >> >> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows
this
> >> >> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows
what
> >it
> >> >is.
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings,
conferences,
> >> >> etc...
> >> >> > > If
> >> >> > > > > you
> >> >> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the
demos.
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the
> >imfamous
> >> >> > "think
> >> >> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Mark
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > --
> >> >> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
> >> >> Partners,
> >> >> > > Inc.
> >> >> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>


Vasu Posted on 2002-03-06 13:32:40.0Z
From: "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@yahoo.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com> <3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:02:40 +0530
Lines: 11
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000
Message-ID: <4p3g4PRxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: PPP-200-8-102.bng.vsnl.net.in 203.200.8.102
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:312
Article PK: 12006

I think, this is not the right place for Personnel Inputs to be put.
This is a publice news group, So everybody shoul understand
the Importance of this News Group. I'm may be wrong, as a
professional please think over. It applies to everyone .....????

Including me right ...........!!!!

Bye
Vasu


Dave Fish [Team Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-06 14:16:22.0Z
From: dfish@sybase.com (Dave Fish [Team Sybase])
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 14:16:22 GMT
Organization: Sybase Professional Services
Reply-To: nospam_dfish@sybase.com_nospam
Message-ID: <3c862441.3383655@199.93.177.77>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com> <3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77> <4p3g4PRxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.22.120.63
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:311
Article PK: 12005

Vasu, what post do you object to? This group is for Job Postings
related to Sybase technology (or for people looking for work).
Sometimes a discussion will drift off the main topic and that is OK as
long as it doesn't get out of control. I don't believe this thread
has.

Regards,
Dave Fish [TeamSybase]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:02:40 +0530, "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@yahoo.com>

wrote:

>I think, this is not the right place for Personnel Inputs to be put.
>This is a publice news group, So everybody shoul understand
>the Importance of this News Group. I'm may be wrong, as a
>professional please think over. It applies to everyone .....????
>
>Including me right ...........!!!!
>
>Bye
>Vasu
>
>


Vasu Posted on 2002-03-06 14:24:01.0Z
From: "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@yahoo.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com> <3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77> <4p3g4PRxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <3c862441.3383655@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:54:01 +0530
Lines: 3
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000
Message-ID: <aiAElsRxBHA.214@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: PPP-200-5-232.bng.vsnl.net.in 203.200.5.232
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:310
Article PK: 19624

Hey man, Don't take it seriously ...!!!


Dave Fish [Team Sybase] Posted on 2002-03-06 15:00:25.0Z
From: dfish@sybase.com (Dave Fish [Team Sybase])
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 15:00:25 GMT
Organization: Sybase Professional Services
Reply-To: nospam_dfish@sybase.com_nospam
Message-ID: <3c862eac.6050490@199.93.177.77>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <1l9CbYKxBHA.204@forums.sybase.com> <3c856fc5.24178296@199.93.177.77> <4p3g4PRxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <3c862441.3383655@199.93.177.77> <aiAElsRxBHA.214@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.22.120.63
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:309
Article PK: 19623

I assume you are responding to my post (it helps to include the text
of the message you are responding to in your message).

I wasn't offended and I'm not taking it too seriously (I don't think)
:-)

I guess I didn't understand your original message.

Regards,
Dave Fish [TeamSybase]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:54:01 +0530, "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@yahoo.com>

wrote:

>Hey man, Don't take it seriously ...!!!
>
>


Edward Muesch Posted on 2002-03-05 17:42:55.0Z
From: "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com> <Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com> <$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com> <BNeukAGxBHA.324@forums.sybase.com> <ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:42:55 -0500
Lines: 283
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Message-ID: <jCIfW5GxBHA.332@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: vzw-166-152-11-145.airbridge.net 166.152.11.145
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:317
Article PK: 19629

Exactly!!!

The problem with the "every-which-way" to support the web was that they kept
changing the way rather than supporting them all and making them all work in
a stable fashion. Too many bugs and too many times changing direction just
destroyed everybody's faith in a stable future with PB on the web. The
documentation was notoriously bad and shrinking market share scared the
third-party manual market.

As we hang on by our fingernails to PB I wonder if Sybase is going to just
going to continue to kid themselves about the future and we'll all have to
abandon the investment we have in the technology. It's only a matter of
time before both MS and Oracle have viable options to Sybase's performance
on large-scale databases and then that really will be the end.

Hell, if Line can give Windows a run for it's money (albeit still a small
one) then the only reason Sybase can't hang on to it's market share in
client-server and distributed application development is just bad
vision/marketing/committment.

-EGM

Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ywMbAXGxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> <choir> Amen! </choir>
>
> Pretty similar in the D.C. area - Lots of US Government agency users, as
> well as quite a few private sector companies. Same problem with
technically
> illiterate managers seeking cheap labor. Have you ever tried to explain
the
> benefits of a framework to someone who thinks Object Orientation is a
sexual
> perversion? Same abandonment for new tools for the Web, leaving mostly
> maintenance on those legacy client/server applications that actually run
the
> enterprise.
>
> If I may add to the wish list: PB 9 web support must play well with
> web/transaction/application servers other than EAS, following the
tradition
> of PB's openness to DB servers. Proprietary solutions and vendor lock-in
are
> obsolete in the 21st century and will keep the product locked in its
current
> niche. That leads to extinction with mathematical certainty.
>
>
> Edward Muesch wrote in message ...
> >Here in NYC, PB was adopted by a large percentage of Financial
Institutions
> >and City Government agencies. Just across the Hudson River in New
Jersey,
> >Healthcare and other asst. industries also developed PB apps which all
> >needed a large pool of PB developers to maintain their systems. This
> >created an influx of developers from around the world coming here to get
> >work. Many of them were just not very good and so the types who blamed
> >their tools for not doing a very good job together with the instability
of
> >the IDE and PB's going every which way to support Web development caused
> >many of those corporations to decide to leave PB and try Java and HTML
> which
> >wound up being an even worse solution for many of them. The talent pool
is
> >now at least twice (probably 3 or 4 times) what the need for PB skills
> >requires here and thus only those with a lot of years invested in PB
still
> >advertise themselves for the shrinking need for said skills.
> >
> >Sybase has one last chance... maybe. If PB 9 doesn't have out-of-the-box
> >web support and doesn't spend huge dollars to advertise and doesn't try
to
> >put a version on every developers desk (I'm talking a FREE desktop
version)
> >and if Sybase doesn't have a template for every possible need (with
wizards
> >to both to tailor and expand them) and if Sybase doesn't stabilize that
> >freakin' IDE... then PB doesn't have a chance.
> >
> >My 2 cents.
> >
> >-EGM
> >
> >Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom> wrote in
> >message news:QnlrzpCxBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Not where we are (north of England). We've given in trying to take on
a
> >PB
> >> developer, whereas VB posts are easy to fill.
> >> And OK, the proportion of quality PB programmers is higher than for VB,
> >but
> >> 90% of none at all makes it a harder job finding one that say 25% of
> 100s.
> >> I hope things will change, I think .Net should help weed out a lot of
the
> >> poor programmers, but there again, .Net is attracting the better VB
> >> developers, they're less likely to retrain in PB/Java.
> >> My 2?-cents
> >> Simon
> >>
> >> --
> >> All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily
those
> >of
> >> my employer
> >>
> >>
> >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:$GNl0R$wBHA.304@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > Actually, the availability of PB programmers is pretty high right now
> >and
> >> > due to that fact the price has come down somewhat for the skills
> >> themselves.
> >> > That is to say, the rate or salary a PB programmer commands has a lot
> >more
> >> > to do with business knowledge and additional skills like other
> >languages,
> >> > web experience and management skills then just PB knowledge alone.
> >> >
> >> > Also, right now managers are having the same problems filling VB
spots
> >> that
> >> > they had filling PB spots just a couple of years ago. A lot of
resumes
> >> come
> >> > in for VB spots from programmers who just aren't that good. They
have
> >> > enough book smarts to pass the "online testing" that a lot of
companies
> >> > insist on but the "real-world" code comes very slowly and is rather
> >> hackish
> >> > form programmers who pad their resumes with exaggerated experience.
> >While
> >> > those very types who were all trying to jump on the PB bandwagon in
the
> >> > recent past have abandoned the PB market, thus increasing the chances
> of
> >> > getting a "good" programmer for a PB spot over a VB spot.
> >> >
> >> > Just an observation.
> >> >
> >> > -EGM
> >> >
> >> > Andrew Linn <oscar@dsa.com.au> wrote in message
> >> > news:Ore3Yb#wBHA.206@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > We had EXACTLY that conversation just today. A lack of PB skills
in
> >the
> >> > > workforce makes it very hard to justify to management that
Sybase/PB
> >is
> >>
> >> > the
> >> > > way to go. An unfortunate chicken-and-egg scenario.
> >> > >
> >> > > "marc" <marcm@momlistens.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:QUvn54WiBHA.375@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > From my perspective, which is of one who placed Powerbuilders for
a
> >> few
> >> > > > years in the heyday(Thats less than 2 years ago but in internet
> >years
> >> > it's
> >> > > > like 10) I noticed a demand a bit for EAserver and jaguar, but it
> >was
> >> > > always
> >> > > > tough to find people who had nay experience. Sometimes I wonder
if
> >IT
> >> > > > directors decided to scrap PB and Sybase for VB and SQL because
> they
> >> > knew
> >> > > > they could find and choose who they needed for their projects.
This
> >in
> >> > > turn
> >> > > > has had a ripple effect throughout, in which the mind set may or
> >might
> >> > > have
> >> > > > been,"well I can't find them, and I need to get this done, so why
> >> don't
> >> > I
> >> > > > switch platforms now....and save myself the headaches...
> >> > > > "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > news:dALjA0LiBHA.235@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > If nobody knows about Sybase, there is nobody to lead.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > Tim
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > news:SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be
> >good.
> >> > > That
> >> > > > > > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff...
if
> >> the
> >> > > > first
> >> > > > > > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> > > > > > eBusiness Division
> >> > > > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my
> >company
> >> > > using
> >> > > > > > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like
it
> >> very
> >> > > > > much(of
> >> > > > > > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
> >> > browser),but
> >> > > > > they
> >> > > > > > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we
told
> >> them
> >> > > > > EAServer
> >> > > > > > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the
> >> benefit
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so
popular.
> >> > > > > > > John
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> >message
> >> > > > > > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> > > zhangj@pendylum.com
> >> > > > > > > > says...
> >> > > > > > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> > > > > > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what
it
> >is.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences,
> >> etc...
> >> > > If
> >> > > > > you
> >> > > > > > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the
imfamous
> >> > "think
> >> > > > > > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Mark
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology
> >> Partners,
> >> > > Inc.
> >> > > > > > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


James Liu Posted on 2001-12-06 16:35:52.0Z
Message-ID: <3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:35:52 -0500
From: James Liu <jimliu_8@hotmail.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 55
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.176.221.138
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:344
Article PK: 19645

Hi, Jonathan :

Now we are using EAServer, we lead, but now one else want follow us, what
should we do next? We already tried very hard to tell people how good EAServer
is, but still get few response, because no one even heard of EAServer. I think
sybase should do something let the world knows EAServer.
EAServer is good, but good product does not means it has a good future.

James

"Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:

> We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
> reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the first
> guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>
> --
> Jonathan Baker
> eBusiness Division
> Sybase, Inc.
>
> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very much(of
> > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but they
> > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them EAServer
> > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
> > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > John
> >
> > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > says...
> > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > >
> > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If you
> > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > >
> > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >


John Zhang Posted on 2001-12-06 16:49:02.0Z
From: "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:49:02 -0500
Lines: 88
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Message-ID: <Ez7KKnnfBHA.235@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: HSE-Toronto-ppp183217.sympatico.ca 64.229.101.234
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:343
Article PK: 12021

Hi, Jonathan :

Syabse was famous for it's database
Sybase has EAserver which is leading-edge,J2EE certified,good performance...
PowerBuilder is client/server,N-tier development tools
I know(even most of people in this forum knew),but if I talk to others,let's
see what happen:

SQL Server:(they don't know ASE,ASA...),they will think about Microsoft
EAServer:nobody knows,if I say it's application server,they will say :why
not weblogic,websphere.....(don't mention Jaguar,PowerDynomo)
PowerBuilder:an old tool for datawindow(better,somebody knows)

This is market

John

James Liu <jimliu_8@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com...
> Hi, Jonathan :
>
> Now we are using EAServer, we lead, but now one else want follow us,
what
> should we do next? We already tried very hard to tell people how good
EAServer
> is, but still get few response, because no one even heard of EAServer. I
think
> sybase should do something let the world knows EAServer.
> EAServer is good, but good product does not means it has a good
future.
>
> James
>
> "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>
> > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
> > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
first
> > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >
> > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >
> > --
> > Jonathan Baker
> > eBusiness Division
> > Sybase, Inc.
> >
> > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
much(of
> > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
they
> > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
EAServer
> > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
about
> > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> > > John
> > >
> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
> > > > says...
> > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > > >
> > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If
you
> > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> > > >
> > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
> > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>


Sara Kolak Posted on 2001-12-12 20:15:23.0Z
From: "Sara Kolak" <skolak@mn.mediaone.net>
Organization: 156.98.20.1
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com> <Ez7KKnnfBHA.235@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: AspNNTP 1.50 (Advent 2000, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <VPEE7m0gBHA.105@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:15:23 -0500
Lines: 101
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.156.232.111
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:342
Article PK: 19641

This year's market share numbers from Giga...holding steady at 4%

According to Giga's figures, IBM is on its way to drawing level with BEA. By the
end of this year it will have won three percentage points of market
share--taking it from 31 percent in 2000 to 34 percent in 2001. BEA's share this
year will be the same as last year, at 36 percent. iPlanet's third place will be
the same at last year, but the company has dropped two points from the 9 percent
it scored last year. Sybase has stayed put at 4 percent. Oracle, HP/Bluestone
and SilverStream were at 3 percent in 2000, meaning Oracle increased its share 2
percent and HP/Bluestone grew 1 percent this year. SilverStream has fallen off
the top five this year.


On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:49:02 -0500,
in news.job_postings

John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>Hi, Jonathan :
>
>Syabse was famous for it's database
>Sybase has EAserver which is leading-edge,J2EE certified,good performance...
>PowerBuilder is client/server,N-tier development tools
>I know(even most of people in this forum knew),but if I talk to others,let's
>see what happen:
>
>SQL Server:(they don't know ASE,ASA...),they will think about Microsoft
>EAServer:nobody knows,if I say it's application server,they will say :why
>not weblogic,websphere.....(don't mention Jaguar,PowerDynomo)
>PowerBuilder:an old tool for datawindow(better,somebody knows)
>
>This is market
>
>John
>
>
>James Liu <jimliu_8@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com...
>> Hi, Jonathan :
>>
>> Now we are using EAServer, we lead, but now one else want follow us,
>what
>> should we do next? We already tried very hard to tell people how good
>EAServer
>> is, but still get few response, because no one even heard of EAServer. I
>think
>> sybase should do something let the world knows EAServer.
>> EAServer is good, but good product does not means it has a good
>future.
>>
>> James
>>
>> "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>>
>> > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good. That
>> > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
>first
>> > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
>> >
>> > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jonathan Baker
>> > eBusiness Division
>> > Sybase, Inc.
>> >
>> > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
>> > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
>much(of
>> > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but
>they
>> > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
>EAServer
>> > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
>about
>> > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
>> > > > says...
>> > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> > > >
>> > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc... If
>you
>> > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
>> > > >
>> > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
>> > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
>> > > >
>> > > > Mark
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
>> > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>

---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Tim Byford Posted on 2001-12-19 18:27:35.0Z
From: "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com> <SgcdcmefBHA.105@forums.sybase.com> <3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com> <Ez7KKnnfBHA.235@forums.sybase.com> <VPEE7m0gBHA.105@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:27:35 -0500
Lines: 149
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Message-ID: <M$QFDzLiBHA.360@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: CPE0080C6F1A023.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 24.101.181.69
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:337
Article PK: 19635

Sadly, its the same old story with Sybase's lack of marketing. We saw it
when PowerSoft was acquired - Powerbuilder had 50%+ of the client/server
market and was the "in thing". Then it was bought by Sybase and ... silence.
The following years saw MS push VB hard and dominate while Sybase hid in a
corner, watching PB's market share plummet. Crazy, since at the time, VB
was a vastly inferior product.

Lack of Sybase advertising, even press releases, is a glaring ommision in
the corporate strategy. It seems like they are content to be trailing the
pack, despite having good products. I use PB and ASE frequently, at more
than one client, but its just for maintaining old apps. I read all sorts of
industry newsletters and magazines, but it wasn't until I went to to the
Sybase's home page that I saw EAServer 4 is now a free download! Imagine
that! A free download, but nobody knows about it - even a guy who likes and
uses Sybase products! Maybe Sybase should send its maketing department to
help the Taliban lose support faster.

Regards,
Tim

"Sara Kolak" <skolak@mn.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:VPEE7m0gBHA.105@forums.sybase.com...
> This year's market share numbers from Giga...holding steady at 4%
>
> According to Giga's figures, IBM is on its way to drawing level with BEA.
By the
> end of this year it will have won three percentage points of market
> share--taking it from 31 percent in 2000 to 34 percent in 2001. BEA's
share this
> year will be the same as last year, at 36 percent. iPlanet's third place
will be
> the same at last year, but the company has dropped two points from the 9
percent
> it scored last year. Sybase has stayed put at 4 percent. Oracle,
HP/Bluestone
> and SilverStream were at 3 percent in 2000, meaning Oracle increased its
share 2
> percent and HP/Bluestone grew 1 percent this year. SilverStream has fallen
off
> the top five this year.
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:49:02 -0500,
> in news.job_postings
> John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >Hi, Jonathan :
> >
> >Syabse was famous for it's database
> >Sybase has EAserver which is leading-edge,J2EE certified,good
performance...
> >PowerBuilder is client/server,N-tier development tools
> >I know(even most of people in this forum knew),but if I talk to
others,let's
> >see what happen:
> >
> >SQL Server:(they don't know ASE,ASA...),they will think about Microsoft
> >EAServer:nobody knows,if I say it's application server,they will say :why
> >not weblogic,websphere.....(don't mention Jaguar,PowerDynomo)
> >PowerBuilder:an old tool for datawindow(better,somebody knows)
> >
> >This is market
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >James Liu <jimliu_8@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:3C0F9E68.9A5740C7@hotmail.com...
> >> Hi, Jonathan :
> >>
> >> Now we are using EAServer, we lead, but now one else want follow
us,
> >what
> >> should we do next? We already tried very hard to tell people how good
> >EAServer
> >> is, but still get few response, because no one even heard of EAServer.
I
> >think
> >> sybase should do something let the world knows EAServer.
> >> EAServer is good, but good product does not means it has a good
> >future.
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >> "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >>
> >> > We call that "lemming" theory. If it is popular, it must be good.
That
> >> > reasoning is why lemmings follow each other off the cliff... if the
> >first
> >> > guy is doing it, why shouldn't everyone else?
> >> >
> >> > What I always say is "do we follow, or do we lead?"
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Jonathan Baker
> >> > eBusiness Division
> >> > Sybase, Inc.
> >> >
> >> > "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company
using
> >> > > EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very
> >much(of
> >> > > course,they only saw the front end and functionality in
browser),but
> >they
> >> > > want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them
> >EAServer
> >> > > is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit
> >about
> >> > > EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> >> > > John
> >> > >
> >> > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > In article <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>,
zhangj@pendylum.com
> >> > > > says...
> >> > > > > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> > > > > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Help spread the word! User Group meetings, conferences, etc...
If
> >you
> >> > > > like giving presentations - use EAServer for the demos.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We all must work to help Sybase marketing and the imfamous "think
> >> > > > tanks" that lead a lot of companies.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Mark
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Corporate Technology Partners,
Inc.
> >> > > > mpfeifer at sprynet.com www.ctpartners.com
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] Posted on 2001-12-04 18:57:59.0Z
From: Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:57:59 -0500
Message-ID: <MPG.1676e6c6c26914fa9897d9@forums.sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.1676c2315ba036ac9897d5@forums.sybase.com> <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com>
Organization: Corporate Technology Partners, Inc.
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: tom.scn.spawar.navy.mil 192.171.8.14
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:346
Article PK: 12023

In article <vXQQvwOfBHA.234@forums.sybase.com>, zhangj@pendylum.com
says...

> This is my ture story:I made a presantation demo for my company using
> EAServer,the sales shown it to the client,the client like it very much(of
> course,they only saw the front end and functionality in browser),but they
> want us implement the product on the IIS or Weblogic,we told them EAServer
> is an application server similar to the Weblogic and the benefit about
> EAServer,but they still trust Weblogic since it's so popular.
> John

Hear it all the time. Didn't say it would be easy, but people need to
do their best. Compare apples to apples - costs to costs - performance
to performance, etc...

Thanks
Mark


Tana Posted on 2001-12-21 16:18:49.0Z
From: "Tana" <tana@acedsl.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:18:49 -0500
Lines: 174
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: bowne17-5.bowne.com 12.105.17.5
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:332
Article PK: 19640

We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions, as well
as client/server.
It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to go away
.....
But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.

I will give you example:
My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for Web
development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer can have
his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our framework(without
any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application that
represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples

We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all based on
Sybase software.
We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living proof
that Sybase software is great solution for developing Web/client-server
applications.
Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.

We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples) and they
showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended hand,
how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?

Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer ......

Team Hepek
www.hepek.com

"John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>
> James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> > Hi, Jonathan :
> >
> > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad. But its
> market
> > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every time I
> mentioned
> > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder
> developers, 99
> > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but
everyone
> knows
> > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other application
> servers,
> > but no one knows EAServer.
> > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several years and
I
> > really like it.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > Sure thing Mel.
> > >
> > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making inroads
> into
> > > production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's on
> > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away the
> > > development servers for free).
> > >
> > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is creating
> the
> > > development environment. But, when you get done installing the 4,5,10
> BEA
> > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application server.
> That's
> > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with that.
> And,
> > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in another.
> > >
> > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who are
> > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in that
> market,
> > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now, take
> your
> > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> > >
> > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jonathan Baker
> > > eBusiness Division
> > > Sybase, Inc.
> > >
> > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million
> dollars
> > > skills
> > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at
> least
> > > for
> > > > right now.
> > > >
> > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market position
is
> just
> > > a
> > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search
> engines
> > > and
> > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please show
us
> the
> > > proof.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Mel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> > > > in news.job_postings
> > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> > > > >I think watever he is
> > > > >did you read this posting:
> > > > >Hello :
> > > > >
> > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very
much.
> But
> > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to
> search
> > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for
> easerver
> > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword, there
> are
> > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > >what do you think???
> > > > >
> > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>, satish@infsys.com
> > > > >> says...
> > > > >> > Folks,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this
> slowdownl
> > > > >economy?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my PB
> > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
> > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >
>
>


"Pavel Galynin" <rusko23 Posted on 2002-06-24 00:19:50.0Z
From: "Pavel Galynin" <rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:19:50 -0400
Lines: 250
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl-64-194-227-49.telocity.com 64.194.227.49
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:250
Article PK: 11976

hmm,

i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other web
whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient. not a
biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out trying
to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development doesnt
compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a scaled-down
web interface, and were going to use php.

ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have to say
its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb' brainwashing. of
course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however this
'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom line is
linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes, the
open source philosophy.

php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which, while
very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open source
development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and shouldnt be
able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the flexibility
so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the features of
the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even thought of.
they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their format
and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
knowledge.

sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality 'production
releases' of its software.

i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui development
tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development period.

yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in c++,
writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
century.

its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated products
into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i realize
sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the intelligence of
the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the odds
are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the marketing buzz
and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which everyine
here seems to be in consensus on).

im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni, keeping my
fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.

pavel

"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions, as
well
> as client/server.
> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to go
away
> .....
> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>
> I will give you example:
> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for Web
> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer can
have
> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
framework(without
> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application that
> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
> http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>
> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all based on
> Sybase software.
> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living proof
> that Sybase software is great solution for developing Web/client-server
> applications.
> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>
> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples) and
they
> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended hand,
> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>
> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer ......
>
> Team Hepek
> www.hepek.com
>
>
>
> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >
> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> > >
> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad. But
its
> > market
> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every time I
> > mentioned
> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder
> > developers, 99
> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but
> everyone
> > knows
> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other application
> > servers,
> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several years
and
> I
> > > really like it.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> > > >
> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making inroads
> > into
> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's on
> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away the
> > > > development servers for free).
> > > >
> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
creating
> > the
> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing the
4,5,10
> > BEA
> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application server.
> > That's
> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with
that.
> > And,
> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in another.
> > > >
> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who
are
> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in that
> > market,
> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now,
take
> > your
> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> > > >
> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jonathan Baker
> > > > eBusiness Division
> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> > > >
> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million
> > dollars
> > > > skills
> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at
> > least
> > > > for
> > > > > right now.
> > > > >
> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market position
> is
> > just
> > > > a
> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search
> > engines
> > > > and
> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please show
> us
> > the
> > > > proof.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Mel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> > > > > in news.job_postings
> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> > > > > >I think watever he is
> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> > > > > >Hello :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very
> much.
> > But
> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to
> > search
> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for
> > easerver
> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword,
there
> > are
> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > >what do you think???
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
satish@infsys.com
> > > > > >> says...
> > > > > >> > Folks,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this
> > slowdownl
> > > > > >economy?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my
PB
> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Jerry Siegel Posted on 2002-07-01 20:51:57.0Z
From: "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:51:57 -0400
Lines: 271
Organization: Data Sciences, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.153.49.2
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:248
Article PK: 19596

Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is compiled
into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java is
compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on about
version 5 by the time Java came out.

Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>hmm,
>
>i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other web
>whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient. not
a
>biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out trying
>to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development doesnt
>compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
scaled-down
>web interface, and were going to use php.
>
>ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have to
say
>its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb' brainwashing. of
>course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however this
>'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
>dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom line is
>linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
>developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes, the
>open source philosophy.
>
>php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which,
while
>very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
>extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
>(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open source
>development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and shouldnt be
>able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the flexibility
>so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the features of
>the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even thought of.
>they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their format
>and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
>knowledge.
>
>sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
>implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality 'production
>releases' of its software.
>
>i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui development
>tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
>management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development period.
>
>yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in c++,
>writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
>because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
>century.
>
>its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated products
>into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i realize
>sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the intelligence
of
>the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the odds
>are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the marketing
buzz
>and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which everyine
>here seems to be in consensus on).
>
>im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni, keeping my
>fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
>
>pavel
>
>"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
>news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
>> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions, as
>well
>> as client/server.
>> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to go
>away
>> .....
>> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
>> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>>
>> I will give you example:
>> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for Web
>> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer can
>have
>> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
>framework(without
>> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application that
>> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
>> http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>>
>> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all based
on
>> Sybase software.
>> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living
proof
>> that Sybase software is great solution for developing Web/client-server
>> applications.
>> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>>
>> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples) and
>they
>> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended
hand,
>> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>>
>> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer ......
>>
>> Team Hepek
>> www.hepek.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
>> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> >
>> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
>> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
>> > > Hi, Jonathan :
>> > >
>> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad. But
>its
>> > market
>> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every time
I
>> > mentioned
>> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder
>> > developers, 99
>> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but
>> everyone
>> > knows
>> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other application
>> > servers,
>> > > but no one knows EAServer.
>> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several years
>and
>> I
>> > > really like it.
>> > >
>> > > James
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Sure thing Mel.
>> > > >
>> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
inroads
>> > into
>> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's on
>> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away the
>> > > > development servers for free).
>> > > >
>> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
>creating
>> > the
>> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing the
>4,5,10
>> > BEA
>> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application server.
>> > That's
>> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with
>that.
>> > And,
>> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in another.
>> > > >
>> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who
>are
>> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in that
>> > market,
>> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now,
>take
>> > your
>> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>> > > >
>> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>> > > >
>> > > > Jonathan
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Jonathan Baker
>> > > > eBusiness Division
>> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> > > >
>> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
>news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the million
>> > dollars
>> > > > skills
>> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for PB..at
>> > least
>> > > > for
>> > > > > right now.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
position
>> is
>> > just
>> > > > a
>> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search
>> > engines
>> > > > and
>> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please
show
>> us
>> > the
>> > > > proof.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Regards
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Mel
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
>> > > > > in news.job_postings
>> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>> > > > > >I think watever he is
>> > > > > >did you read this posting:
>> > > > > >Hello :
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very
>> much.
>> > But
>> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword to
>> > search
>> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job for
>> > easerver
>> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword,
>there
>> > are
>> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > James
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >what do you think???
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
>satish@infsys.com
>> > > > > >> says...
>> > > > > >> > Folks,
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this
>> > slowdownl
>> > > > > >economy?
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean my
>PB
>> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB, distributed
>> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Mark
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


"Pavel Galynin" <rusko23 Posted on 2002-07-03 07:33:52.0Z
From: "Pavel Galynin" <rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 03:33:52 -0400
Lines: 323
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl-64-194-227-49.telocity.com 64.194.227.49
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:247
Article PK: 11971

jerry,

though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how many
people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is that it
is not compiled into machine code.
(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)

if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code compiled
with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much difference
in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why more
flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.

pavel

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
compiled
> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java is
> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on about
> version 5 by the time Java came out.
>
> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >hmm,
> >
> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other web
> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient.
not
> a
> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out
trying
> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development
doesnt
> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> scaled-down
> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> >
> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have to
> say
> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb' brainwashing.
of
> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however this
> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom line
is
> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes, the
> >open source philosophy.
> >
> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which,
> while
> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
source
> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and shouldnt
be
> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
flexibility
> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the features
of
> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even thought
of.
> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their
format
> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
> >knowledge.
> >
> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality 'production
> >releases' of its software.
> >
> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui development
> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development period.
> >
> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in c++,
> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
> >century.
> >
> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
products
> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i realize
> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the intelligence
> of
> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the odds
> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the marketing
> buzz
> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which everyine
> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> >
> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni, keeping
my
> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
> >
> >pavel
> >
> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions, as
> >well
> >> as client/server.
> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to go
> >away
> >> .....
> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
> >>
> >> I will give you example:
> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for Web
> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer can
> >have
> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> >framework(without
> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application that
> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
> >>
http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> >>
> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all based
> on
> >> Sybase software.
> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living
> proof
> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing Web/client-server
> >> applications.
> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> >>
> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples) and
> >they
> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended
> hand,
> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
> >>
> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
......
> >>
> >> Team Hepek
> >> www.hepek.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >> >
> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> >> > >
> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad.
But
> >its
> >> > market
> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every
time
> I
> >> > mentioned
> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder
> >> > developers, 99
> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but
> >> everyone
> >> > knows
> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
application
> >> > servers,
> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several
years
> >and
> >> I
> >> > > really like it.
> >> > >
> >> > > James
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
> inroads
> >> > into
> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's
on
> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away
the
> >> > > > development servers for free).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
> >creating
> >> > the
> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing the
> >4,5,10
> >> > BEA
> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
server.
> >> > That's
> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with
> >that.
> >> > And,
> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
another.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people who
> >are
> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in
that
> >> > market,
> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now,
> >take
> >> > your
> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Jonathan
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
million
> >> > dollars
> >> > > > skills
> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for
PB..at
> >> > least
> >> > > > for
> >> > > > > right now.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
> position
> >> is
> >> > just
> >> > > > a
> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job search
> >> > engines
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please
> show
> >> us
> >> > the
> >> > > > proof.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Regards
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Mel
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> >> > > > > >Hello :
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it very
> >> much.
> >> > But
> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword
to
> >> > search
> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job
for
> >> > easerver
> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword,
> >there
> >> > are
> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > James
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
message
> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> >satish@infsys.com
> >> > > > > >> says...
> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> >> > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this
> >> > slowdownl
> >> > > > > >economy?
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean
my
> >PB
> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
distributed
> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> Mark
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


Jerry Siegel Posted on 2002-07-03 14:09:31.0Z
From: "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:09:31 -0400
Lines: 347
Organization: Data Sciences, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.153.49.2
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:246
Article PK: 19594

I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's job
is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do better
in implementing machine code deployables.
IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up for
the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in PB9
can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.

Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>jerry,
>
>though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
>i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how many
>people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is that it
>is not compiled into machine code.
>(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
>
>if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
compiled
>with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much difference
>in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
>strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why more
>flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
>
>pavel
>
>"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
>> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
>compiled
>> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java is
>> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on about
>> version 5 by the time Java came out.
>>
>> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>> >hmm,
>> >
>> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other web
>> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient.
>not
>> a
>> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out
>trying
>> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development
>doesnt
>> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
>> scaled-down
>> >web interface, and were going to use php.
>> >
>> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have to
>> say
>> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb' brainwashing.
>of
>> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however this
>> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
>> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom line
>is
>> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
>> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes, the
>> >open source philosophy.
>> >
>> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which,
>> while
>> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
>> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
>> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
>source
>> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and shouldnt
>be
>> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
>flexibility
>> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the features
>of
>> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even thought
>of.
>> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their
>format
>> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
>> >knowledge.
>> >
>> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
>> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
'production
>> >releases' of its software.
>> >
>> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui development
>> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
>> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development period.
>> >
>> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in
c++,
>> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
>> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
>> >century.
>> >
>> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
>products
>> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i realize
>> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
intelligence
>> of
>> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the
odds
>> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the marketing
>> buzz
>> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
everyine
>> >here seems to be in consensus on).
>> >
>> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni, keeping
>my
>> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
>> >
>> >pavel
>> >
>> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
>> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions,
as
>> >well
>> >> as client/server.
>> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to go
>> >away
>> >> .....
>> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
>> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>> >>
>> >> I will give you example:
>> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for Web
>> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer
can
>> >have
>> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
>> >framework(without
>> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application that
>> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
>> >>
>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>> >>
>> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
based
>> on
>> >> Sybase software.
>> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living
>> proof
>> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
Web/client-server
>> >> applications.
>> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>> >>
>> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples) and
>> >they
>> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended
>> hand,
>> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>> >>
>> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
>......
>> >>
>> >> Team Hepek
>> >> www.hepek.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> >> >
>> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
>> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad.
>But
>> >its
>> >> > market
>> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every
>time
>> I
>> >> > mentioned
>> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some powerbuilder
>> >> > developers, 99
>> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server, but
>> >> everyone
>> >> > knows
>> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
>application
>> >> > servers,
>> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
>> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several
>years
>> >and
>> >> I
>> >> > > really like it.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > James
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
>> inroads
>> >> > into
>> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems. That's
>on
>> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away
>the
>> >> > > > development servers for free).
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
>> >creating
>> >> > the
>> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing the
>> >4,5,10
>> >> > BEA
>> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
>server.
>> >> > That's
>> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers with
>> >that.
>> >> > And,
>> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
>another.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people
who
>> >are
>> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in
>that
>> >> > market,
>> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder. Now,
>> >take
>> >> > your
>> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Jonathan
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > --
>> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
>> >> > > > eBusiness Division
>> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
>> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
>million
>> >> > dollars
>> >> > > > skills
>> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for
>PB..at
>> >> > least
>> >> > > > for
>> >> > > > > right now.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
>> position
>> >> is
>> >> > just
>> >> > > > a
>> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
search
>> >> > engines
>> >> > > > and
>> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then please
>> show
>> >> us
>> >> > the
>> >> > > > proof.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Regards
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Mel
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
>> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
>> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
>> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
>> >> > > > > >Hello :
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it
very
>> >> much.
>> >> > But
>> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as keyword
>to
>> >> > search
>> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job
>for
>> >> > easerver
>> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as keyword,
>> >there
>> >> > are
>> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > James
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >what do you think???
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>message
>> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
>> >satish@infsys.com
>> >> > > > > >> says...
>> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
>> >> > > > > >> >
>> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in this
>> >> > slowdownl
>> >> > > > > >economy?
>> >> > > > > >>
>> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you mean
>my
>> >PB
>> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
>distributed
>> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>> >> > > > > >>
>> >> > > > > >> Mark
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


"Pavel Galynin" <rusko23 Posted on 2002-07-03 19:58:58.0Z
From: "Pavel Galynin" <rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:58:58 -0400
Lines: 405
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <a7AJtzsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl-64-194-227-49.telocity.com 64.194.227.49
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:244
Article PK: 11970

jerry,

machine code deployables wouldnt do much good in most cases, so i dont
specifically care if pb ever gets that working. the pbni is very exciting,
since i would be able to move my associative array implementation to a dll.

again, there is no reason why a 4gl cant be flexible. mind you, im not even
referring to te parts of the manguage that deals with the gui. im asking for
operator overloading, better access tpo internal structures of the language
etc.

also, there is no reason why a language cant be both weakly-typed and not
auto-create variables for you. i agree that auto-create leads to very nasty
bugs. but that possibility is offset by the time i saved using variable
variables in php, being able to enumerate variables in a certain scope and
import variables into the current scope.

bottom line, if you want a more powerful syntax, you are responsible to make
sure you dont misuse that power. thats your job as a coder.

pavel

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
> I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's job
> is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do better
> in implementing machine code deployables.
> IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
> potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up for
> the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in PB9
> can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
>
> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >jerry,
> >
> >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
> >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how many
> >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is that
it
> >is not compiled into machine code.
> >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
> >
> >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
> compiled
> >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
difference
> >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
> >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why more
> >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
> >
> >pavel
> >
> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
> >compiled
> >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java is
> >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
about
> >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
> >>
> >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >> >hmm,
> >> >
> >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
web
> >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient.
> >not
> >> a
> >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out
> >trying
> >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development
> >doesnt
> >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> >> scaled-down
> >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> >> >
> >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have
to
> >> say
> >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
brainwashing.
> >of
> >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
this
> >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
> >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
line
> >is
> >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
> >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes,
the
> >> >open source philosophy.
> >> >
> >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which,
> >> while
> >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
> >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
> >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
> >source
> >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
shouldnt
> >be
> >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
> >flexibility
> >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
features
> >of
> >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
thought
> >of.
> >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their
> >format
> >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
> >> >knowledge.
> >> >
> >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
> >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
> 'production
> >> >releases' of its software.
> >> >
> >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
development
> >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
> >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
period.
> >> >
> >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in
> c++,
> >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
> >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
> >> >century.
> >> >
> >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
> >products
> >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
realize
> >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
> intelligence
> >> of
> >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the
> odds
> >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
marketing
> >> buzz
> >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
> everyine
> >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> >> >
> >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
keeping
> >my
> >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
> >> >
> >> >pavel
> >> >
> >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions,
> as
> >> >well
> >> >> as client/server.
> >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to
go
> >> >away
> >> >> .....
> >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
> >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
> >> >>
> >> >> I will give you example:
> >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for
Web
> >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer
> can
> >> >have
> >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> >> >framework(without
> >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
that
> >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
> >> >>
> >http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> >> >>
> >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
> based
> >> on
> >> >> Sybase software.
> >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living
> >> proof
> >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
> Web/client-server
> >> >> applications.
> >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> >> >>
> >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples)
and
> >> >they
> >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended
> >> hand,
> >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
> >> >>
> >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
> >......
> >> >>
> >> >> Team Hepek
> >> >> www.hepek.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad.
> >But
> >> >its
> >> >> > market
> >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every
> >time
> >> I
> >> >> > mentioned
> >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
powerbuilder
> >> >> > developers, 99
> >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
but
> >> >> everyone
> >> >> > knows
> >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
> >application
> >> >> > servers,
> >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several
> >years
> >> >and
> >> >> I
> >> >> > > really like it.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > James
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
> >> inroads
> >> >> > into
> >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
That's
> >on
> >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away
> >the
> >> >> > > > development servers for free).
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
> >> >creating
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
the
> >> >4,5,10
> >> >> > BEA
> >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
> >server.
> >> >> > That's
> >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
with
> >> >that.
> >> >> > And,
> >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
> >another.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people
> who
> >> >are
> >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in
> >that
> >> >> > market,
> >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
Now,
> >> >take
> >> >> > your
> >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Jonathan
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > --
> >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
> >million
> >> >> > dollars
> >> >> > > > skills
> >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for
> >PB..at
> >> >> > least
> >> >> > > > for
> >> >> > > > > right now.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
> >> position
> >> >> is
> >> >> > just
> >> >> > > > a
> >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
> search
> >> >> > engines
> >> >> > > > and
> >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
please
> >> show
> >> >> us
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > > proof.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Regards
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Mel
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> >> >> > > > > >Hello :
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it
> very
> >> >> much.
> >> >> > But
> >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
keyword
> >to
> >> >> > search
> >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job
> >for
> >> >> > easerver
> >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
keyword,
> >> >there
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > James
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> >message
> >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> >satish@infsys.com
> >> >> > > > > >> says...
> >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> >> >> > > > > >> >
> >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
this
> >> >> > slowdownl
> >> >> > > > > >economy?
> >> >> > > > > >>
> >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
mean
> >my
> >> >PB
> >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
> >distributed
> >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >> >> > > > > >>
> >> >> > > > > >> Mark
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


James Cameron Posted on 2002-07-04 03:21:42.0Z
From: James Cameron <>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:21:42 -0500
Message-ID: <nkf7iuglr3j22gr9686gl69msdp22cg110@4ax.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <a7AJtzsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 369
NNTP-Posting-Host: h24-206-138-229.tx.shawcable.net 24.206.138.229
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:241
Article PK: 19591

I agree that op overloading and and user enums are about 6 years
overdue, but PB does have both operation and inheritance polymorphism,
as well as the DYNAMIC capability. For my erudition, in what ways do
you see the language as too strongly typed?


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:58:58 -0400, "Pavel Galynin"

<rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com> wrote:

>jerry,
>
>machine code deployables wouldnt do much good in most cases, so i dont
>specifically care if pb ever gets that working. the pbni is very exciting,
>since i would be able to move my associative array implementation to a dll.
>
>again, there is no reason why a 4gl cant be flexible. mind you, im not even
>referring to te parts of the manguage that deals with the gui. im asking for
>operator overloading, better access tpo internal structures of the language
>etc.
>
>also, there is no reason why a language cant be both weakly-typed and not
>auto-create variables for you. i agree that auto-create leads to very nasty
>bugs. but that possibility is offset by the time i saved using variable
>variables in php, being able to enumerate variables in a certain scope and
>import variables into the current scope.
>
>bottom line, if you want a more powerful syntax, you are responsible to make
>sure you dont misuse that power. thats your job as a coder.
>
>pavel
>
>"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
>> I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's job
>> is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do better
>> in implementing machine code deployables.
>> IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
>> potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up for
>> the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in PB9
>> can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
>>
>> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>> >jerry,
>> >
>> >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
>> >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how many
>> >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is that
>it
>> >is not compiled into machine code.
>> >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
>> >
>> >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
>> compiled
>> >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
>difference
>> >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
>> >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why more
>> >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
>> >
>> >pavel
>> >
>> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>> >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
>> >compiled
>> >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java is
>> >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
>about
>> >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
>> >>
>> >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>> >> >hmm,
>> >> >
>> >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
>web
>> >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient.
>> >not
>> >> a
>> >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out
>> >trying
>> >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development
>> >doesnt
>> >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
>> >> scaled-down
>> >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
>> >> >
>> >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have
>to
>> >> say
>> >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
>brainwashing.
>> >of
>> >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
>this
>> >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
>> >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
>line
>> >is
>> >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
>> >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes,
>the
>> >> >open source philosophy.
>> >> >
>> >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which,
>> >> while
>> >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
>> >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
>> >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
>> >source
>> >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
>shouldnt
>> >be
>> >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
>> >flexibility
>> >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
>features
>> >of
>> >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
>thought
>> >of.
>> >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their
>> >format
>> >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
>> >> >knowledge.
>> >> >
>> >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
>> >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
>> 'production
>> >> >releases' of its software.
>> >> >
>> >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
>development
>> >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
>> >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
>period.
>> >> >
>> >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in
>> c++,
>> >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
>> >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
>> >> >century.
>> >> >
>> >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
>> >products
>> >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
>realize
>> >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
>> intelligence
>> >> of
>> >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the
>> odds
>> >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
>marketing
>> >> buzz
>> >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
>> everyine
>> >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
>> >> >
>> >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
>keeping
>> >my
>> >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
>> >> >
>> >> >pavel
>> >> >
>> >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions,
>> as
>> >> >well
>> >> >> as client/server.
>> >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to
>go
>> >> >away
>> >> >> .....
>> >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
>> >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I will give you example:
>> >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for
>Web
>> >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer
>> can
>> >> >have
>> >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
>> >> >framework(without
>> >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
>that
>> >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
>> >> >>
>> >http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
>> based
>> >> on
>> >> >> Sybase software.
>> >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living
>> >> proof
>> >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
>> Web/client-server
>> >> >> applications.
>> >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples)
>and
>> >> >they
>> >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended
>> >> hand,
>> >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
>> >......
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Team Hepek
>> >> >> www.hepek.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
>> >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad.
>> >But
>> >> >its
>> >> >> > market
>> >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every
>> >time
>> >> I
>> >> >> > mentioned
>> >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
>powerbuilder
>> >> >> > developers, 99
>> >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
>but
>> >> >> everyone
>> >> >> > knows
>> >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
>> >application
>> >> >> > servers,
>> >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
>> >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several
>> >years
>> >> >and
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> > > really like it.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > James
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
>> >> inroads
>> >> >> > into
>> >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
>That's
>> >on
>> >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away
>> >the
>> >> >> > > > development servers for free).
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
>> >> >creating
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
>the
>> >> >4,5,10
>> >> >> > BEA
>> >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
>> >server.
>> >> >> > That's
>> >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
>with
>> >> >that.
>> >> >> > And,
>> >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
>> >another.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people
>> who
>> >> >are
>> >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in
>> >that
>> >> >> > market,
>> >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
>Now,
>> >> >take
>> >> >> > your
>> >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > Jonathan
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > --
>> >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
>> >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
>> >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
>> >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
>> >million
>> >> >> > dollars
>> >> >> > > > skills
>> >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for
>> >PB..at
>> >> >> > least
>> >> >> > > > for
>> >> >> > > > > right now.
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
>> >> position
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> > just
>> >> >> > > > a
>> >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
>> search
>> >> >> > engines
>> >> >> > > > and
>> >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
>please
>> >> show
>> >> >> us
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > > > proof.
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > Regards
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > Mel
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
>> >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
>> >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
>> >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
>> >> >> > > > > >Hello :
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it
>> very
>> >> >> much.
>> >> >> > But
>> >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
>keyword
>> >to
>> >> >> > search
>> >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job
>> >for
>> >> >> > easerver
>> >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
>keyword,
>> >> >there
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > > James
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>> >message
>> >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
>> >> >satish@infsys.com
>> >> >> > > > > >> says...
>> >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
>> >> >> > > > > >> >
>> >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
>this
>> >> >> > slowdownl
>> >> >> > > > > >economy?
>> >> >> > > > > >>
>> >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
>mean
>> >my
>> >> >PB
>> >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
>> >distributed
>> >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>> >> >> > > > > >>
>> >> >> > > > > >> Mark
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > >
>> >> >> > > > >
>> >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>> >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>


"Pavel Galynin" <rusko23 Posted on 2002-07-04 06:01:51.0Z
From: "Pavel Galynin" <rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <a7AJtzsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <nkf7iuglr3j22gr9686gl69msdp22cg110@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 02:01:51 -0400
Lines: 37
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <esFckEyICHA.378@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl-64-194-227-49.telocity.com 64.194.227.49
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:240
Article PK: 11968

james,

<James Cameron> wrote in message
news:nkf7iuglr3j22gr9686gl69msdp22cg110@4ax.com...
> I agree that op overloading and and user enums are about 6 years
> overdue, but PB does have both operation and inheritance polymorphism,
> as well as the DYNAMIC capability.

true, however id like to see something to the effect of function pointers
(yes, they are necessary even though we have polymorphism). also, in pb8,
global functions dont support polymorphism (major boo-boo). before you ask,
i do use global functions a lot, as i am forced to implement a lot of
functionality thats missing in powerscript through pcode (eg assoc arrays).

> For my erudition, in what ways do
> you see the language as too strongly typed?

the any type is majorly flawed (remember those error messages on failed
casts?). or those pesky 'refrence type doesnt match' messages? moreover,
someone at sybase decided to change the way any behaves somewhere along the
way from 5 to 8, making a cast from a never initialized any to fail with a
nasty message. it could be argued that it is indeed desired to do so, but
there are just as many cons to that approach as there are pros.

a way to create/access variables at runtime as opposed to declaring them
would be useful also. structure inheritance anyone? or at least a way to
cast from one structure to another?

dont take me wrong, pb is a very useful tool, but it hurts to see it not
being able to do all these useful powerful things which would have been so
handy.

sorry if im not that coherent, been a long day =]

pavel


Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase] Posted on 2002-07-04 08:27:36.0Z
From: "Simon Caldwell [TeamSybase]" <simonDOTcaldwellATbigfootDOTcom>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <a7AJtzsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <nkf7iuglr3j22gr9686gl69msdp22cg110@4ax.com> <esFckEyICHA.378@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:27:36 +0100
Lines: 53
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <$2s2KizICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: getreal.demon.co.uk 193.237.14.95
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:239
Article PK: 11969

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, but I suspect these suggestions would
stand more chance of being incorporated into future versions if they were
raised in the futures_discussion forum rather than job_postings ;-)

--
All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those of
my employer

"Pavel Galynin" <rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com> wrote in
message news:esFckEyICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> james,
>
> <James Cameron> wrote in message
> news:nkf7iuglr3j22gr9686gl69msdp22cg110@4ax.com...
> > I agree that op overloading and and user enums are about 6 years
> > overdue, but PB does have both operation and inheritance polymorphism,
> > as well as the DYNAMIC capability.
>
> true, however id like to see something to the effect of function pointers
> (yes, they are necessary even though we have polymorphism). also, in pb8,
> global functions dont support polymorphism (major boo-boo). before you
ask,
> i do use global functions a lot, as i am forced to implement a lot of
> functionality thats missing in powerscript through pcode (eg assoc
arrays).
>
> > For my erudition, in what ways do
> > you see the language as too strongly typed?
>
> the any type is majorly flawed (remember those error messages on failed
> casts?). or those pesky 'refrence type doesnt match' messages? moreover,
> someone at sybase decided to change the way any behaves somewhere along
the
> way from 5 to 8, making a cast from a never initialized any to fail with a
> nasty message. it could be argued that it is indeed desired to do so, but
> there are just as many cons to that approach as there are pros.
>
> a way to create/access variables at runtime as opposed to declaring them
> would be useful also. structure inheritance anyone? or at least a way to
> cast from one structure to another?
>
> dont take me wrong, pb is a very useful tool, but it hurts to see it not
> being able to do all these useful powerful things which would have been so
> handy.
>
> sorry if im not that coherent, been a long day =]
>
> pavel
>
>


"Pavel Galynin" <rusko23 Posted on 2002-07-04 15:55:23.0Z
From: "Pavel Galynin" <rusko23@___no_spam_for_me__directvinternet.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <a7AJtzsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <nkf7iuglr3j22gr9686gl69msdp22cg110@4ax.com> <esFckEyICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <$2s2KizICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:55:23 -0400
Lines: 13
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <QauROQ3ICHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl-64-194-227-49.telocity.com 64.194.227.49
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:238
Article PK: 19592

simon,

> Sorry to interrupt your discussion, but I suspect these suggestions would
> stand more chance of being incorporated into future versions if they were
> raised in the futures_discussion forum rather than job_postings ;-)

you are right of course. i rant here, i rant there, i rant eveywhere =]
however, this thread has served to give the impression of activity in this
newsgroup, something to consider.

pavel


Mark Maslow Posted on 2002-07-03 19:00:08.0Z
From: "Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:00:08 -0700
Lines: 394
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Message-ID: <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: machine001.sierraclub.org 207.90.163.1
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:245
Article PK: 11974

IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.

I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that went
off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates things
for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing down
something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling is
way too high for me.

But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the job.

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
> I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's job
> is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do better
> in implementing machine code deployables.
> IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
> potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up for
> the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in PB9
> can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
>
> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >jerry,
> >
> >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
> >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how many
> >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is that
it
> >is not compiled into machine code.
> >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
> >
> >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
> compiled
> >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
difference
> >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
> >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why more
> >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
> >
> >pavel
> >
> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
> >compiled
> >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java is
> >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
about
> >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
> >>
> >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >> >hmm,
> >> >
> >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
web
> >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and inefficient.
> >not
> >> a
> >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out
> >trying
> >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development
> >doesnt
> >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> >> scaled-down
> >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> >> >
> >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i have
to
> >> say
> >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
brainwashing.
> >of
> >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
this
> >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a multi-million
> >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
line
> >is
> >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts of
> >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes,
the
> >> >open source philosophy.
> >> >
> >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features which,
> >> while
> >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable variables,
> >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted language
> >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
> >source
> >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
shouldnt
> >be
> >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
> >flexibility
> >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
features
> >of
> >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
thought
> >of.
> >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their
> >format
> >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
> >> >knowledge.
> >> >
> >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best), doesnt
> >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
> 'production
> >> >releases' of its software.
> >> >
> >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
development
> >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from sybase
> >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
period.
> >> >
> >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in
> c++,
> >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant code
> >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the last
> >> >century.
> >> >
> >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
> >products
> >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
realize
> >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
> intelligence
> >> of
> >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the
> odds
> >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
marketing
> >> buzz
> >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
> everyine
> >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> >> >
> >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
keeping
> >my
> >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
> >> >
> >> >pavel
> >> >
> >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web solutions,
> as
> >> >well
> >> >> as client/server.
> >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer to
go
> >> >away
> >> >> .....
> >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
> >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
> >> >>
> >> >> I will give you example:
> >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for
Web
> >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB developer
> can
> >> >have
> >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> >> >framework(without
> >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
that
> >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by framework.
> >> >>
> >http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> >> >>
> >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
> based
> >> on
> >> >> Sybase software.
> >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a living
> >> proof
> >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
> Web/client-server
> >> >> applications.
> >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> >> >>
> >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples)
and
> >> >they
> >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our extended
> >> hand,
> >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
> >> >>
> >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
> >......
> >> >>
> >> >> Team Hepek
> >> >> www.hepek.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is bad.
> >But
> >> >its
> >> >> > market
> >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us. Every
> >time
> >> I
> >> >> > mentioned
> >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
powerbuilder
> >> >> > developers, 99
> >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
but
> >> >> everyone
> >> >> > knows
> >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
> >application
> >> >> > servers,
> >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several
> >years
> >> >and
> >> >> I
> >> >> > > really like it.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > James
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
> >> inroads
> >> >> > into
> >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
That's
> >on
> >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give away
> >the
> >> >> > > > development servers for free).
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers, is
> >> >creating
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
the
> >> >4,5,10
> >> >> > BEA
> >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
> >server.
> >> >> > That's
> >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
with
> >> >that.
> >> >> > And,
> >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
> >another.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the people
> who
> >> >are
> >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share in
> >that
> >> >> > market,
> >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
Now,
> >> >take
> >> >> > your
> >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Jonathan
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > --
> >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
> >million
> >> >> > dollars
> >> >> > > > skills
> >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for
> >PB..at
> >> >> > least
> >> >> > > > for
> >> >> > > > > right now.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
> >> position
> >> >> is
> >> >> > just
> >> >> > > > a
> >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
> search
> >> >> > engines
> >> >> > > > and
> >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
please
> >> show
> >> >> us
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > > proof.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Regards
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Mel
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> >> >> > > > > >Hello :
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it
> very
> >> >> much.
> >> >> > But
> >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
keyword
> >to
> >> >> > search
> >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no job
> >for
> >> >> > easerver
> >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
keyword,
> >> >there
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > James
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> >message
> >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> >satish@infsys.com
> >> >> > > > > >> says...
> >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> >> >> > > > > >> >
> >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
this
> >> >> > slowdownl
> >> >> > > > > >economy?
> >> >> > > > > >>
> >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
mean
> >my
> >> >PB
> >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
> >distributed
> >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >> >> > > > > >>
> >> >> > > > > >> Mark
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2002-07-04 02:29:18.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:29:18 -0400
Lines: 448
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.159.8.43
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:242
Article PK: 19598

Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't realized
they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?


J



--
--------------------
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.

"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
>
> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
went
> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates things
> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
down
> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling is
> way too high for me.
>
> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
job.
>
> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's
job
> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
better
> > in implementing machine code deployables.
> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up
for
> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in
PB9
> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
> >
> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> > >jerry,
> > >
> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how
many
> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is that
> it
> > >is not compiled into machine code.
> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
> > >
> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
> > compiled
> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
> difference
> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
more
> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
> > >
> > >pavel
> > >
> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
> > >compiled
> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java
is
> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
> about
> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
> > >>
> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> > >> >hmm,
> > >> >
> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
> web
> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
inefficient.
> > >not
> > >> a
> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs out
> > >trying
> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of development
> > >doesnt
> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> > >> scaled-down
> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> > >> >
> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
have
> to
> > >> say
> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
> brainwashing.
> > >of
> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
> this
> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
multi-million
> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
> line
> > >is
> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts
of
> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and yes,
> the
> > >> >open source philosophy.
> > >> >
> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
which,
> > >> while
> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
variables,
> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
language
> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
> > >source
> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
> shouldnt
> > >be
> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
> > >flexibility
> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
> features
> > >of
> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
> thought
> > >of.
> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting their
> > >format
> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
> > >> >knowledge.
> > >> >
> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
doesnt
> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
> > 'production
> > >> >releases' of its software.
> > >> >
> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
> development
> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
sybase
> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
> period.
> > >> >
> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code in
> > c++,
> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant
code
> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
last
> > >> >century.
> > >> >
> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
> > >products
> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
> realize
> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
> > intelligence
> > >> of
> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all the
> > odds
> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
> marketing
> > >> buzz
> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
> > everyine
> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> > >> >
> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
> keeping
> > >my
> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
> > >> >
> > >> >pavel
> > >> >
> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
solutions,
> > as
> > >> >well
> > >> >> as client/server.
> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer
to
> go
> > >> >away
> > >> >> .....
> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I will give you example:
> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution for
> Web
> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
developer
> > can
> > >> >have
> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> > >> >framework(without
> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
> that
> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
framework.
> > >> >>
> >
>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> > >> >>
> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
> > based
> > >> on
> > >> >> Sybase software.
> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
living
> > >> proof
> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
> > Web/client-server
> > >> >> applications.
> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web examples)
> and
> > >> >they
> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
extended
> > >> hand,
> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
> > >......
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Team Hepek
> > >> >> www.hepek.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is
bad.
> > >But
> > >> >its
> > >> >> > market
> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
Every
> > >time
> > >> I
> > >> >> > mentioned
> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
> powerbuilder
> > >> >> > developers, 99
> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
> but
> > >> >> everyone
> > >> >> > knows
> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
> > >application
> > >> >> > servers,
> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for several
> > >years
> > >> >and
> > >> >> I
> > >> >> > > really like it.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > James
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is making
> > >> inroads
> > >> >> > into
> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
> That's
> > >on
> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give
away
> > >the
> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers,
is
> > >> >creating
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
> the
> > >> >4,5,10
> > >> >> > BEA
> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
> > >server.
> > >> >> > That's
> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
> with
> > >> >that.
> > >> >> > And,
> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
> > >another.
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
people
> > who
> > >> >are
> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share
in
> > >that
> > >> >> > market,
> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
> Now,
> > >> >take
> > >> >> > your
> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > --
> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
> > >million
> > >> >> > dollars
> > >> >> > > > skills
> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished for
> > >PB..at
> > >> >> > least
> > >> >> > > > for
> > >> >> > > > > right now.
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
> > >> position
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> > just
> > >> >> > > > a
> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
> > search
> > >> >> > engines
> > >> >> > > > and
> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
> please
> > >> show
> > >> >> us
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > > > proof.
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > Regards
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > Mel
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like it
> > very
> > >> >> much.
> > >> >> > But
> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
> keyword
> > >to
> > >> >> > search
> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no
job
> > >for
> > >> >> > easerver
> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
> keyword,
> > >> >there
> > >> >> > are
> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the result.
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > James
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
> > >message
> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> > >> >satish@infsys.com
> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> > >> >> > > > > >> >
> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
> this
> > >> >> > slowdownl
> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
> > >> >> > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
> mean
> > >my
> > >> >PB
> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
> > >distributed
> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> > >> >> > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Jerry Siegel Posted on 2002-07-05 13:49:54.0Z
From: "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:49:54 -0400
Lines: 471
Organization: Data Sciences, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.153.49.2
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:237
Article PK: 11966

That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
kept a loop from iterating.

Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message
<8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>...
>Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't realized
>they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?
>
>
>J
>
>
>
>--
>--------------------
>Jonathan Baker
>eBusiness Division
>Sybase, Inc.
>
>
>"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
>news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
>> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
>>
>> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
>went
>> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
>> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates
things
>> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
>down
>> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling is
>> way too high for me.
>>
>> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
>job.
>>
>> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
>> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's
>job
>> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
>better
>> > in implementing machine code deployables.
>> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
>> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up
>for
>> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in
>PB9
>> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
>> >
>> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>> > >jerry,
>> > >
>> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
>> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how
>many
>> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is
that
>> it
>> > >is not compiled into machine code.
>> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
>> > >
>> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
>> > compiled
>> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
>> difference
>> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
>> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
>more
>> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
>> > >
>> > >pavel
>> > >
>> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
>> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
>> > >compiled
>> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java
>is
>> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
>> about
>> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
>> > >>
>> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>> > >> >hmm,
>> > >> >
>> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
>> web
>> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
>inefficient.
>> > >not
>> > >> a
>> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs
out
>> > >trying
>> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of
development
>> > >doesnt
>> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
>> > >> scaled-down
>> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
>have
>> to
>> > >> say
>> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
>> brainwashing.
>> > >of
>> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
>> this
>> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
>multi-million
>> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
>> line
>> > >is
>> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts
>of
>> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and
yes,
>> the
>> > >> >open source philosophy.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
>which,
>> > >> while
>> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
>variables,
>> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
>language
>> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
>> > >source
>> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
>> shouldnt
>> > >be
>> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
>> > >flexibility
>> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
>> features
>> > >of
>> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
>> thought
>> > >of.
>> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting
their
>> > >format
>> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
>> > >> >knowledge.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
>doesnt
>> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
>> > 'production
>> > >> >releases' of its software.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
>> development
>> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
>sybase
>> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
>> period.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code
in
>> > c++,
>> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant
>code
>> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
>last
>> > >> >century.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
>> > >products
>> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
>> realize
>> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
>> > intelligence
>> > >> of
>> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all
the
>> > odds
>> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
>> marketing
>> > >> buzz
>> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
>> > everyine
>> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
>> > >> >
>> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
>> keeping
>> > >my
>> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >pavel
>> > >> >
>> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
>> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
>> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
>solutions,
>> > as
>> > >> >well
>> > >> >> as client/server.
>> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer
>to
>> go
>> > >> >away
>> > >> >> .....
>> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
>> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I will give you example:
>> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution
for
>> Web
>> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
>developer
>> > can
>> > >> >have
>> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
>> > >> >framework(without
>> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
>> that
>> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
>framework.
>> > >> >>
>> >
>>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
>> > based
>> > >> on
>> > >> >> Sybase software.
>> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
>living
>> > >> proof
>> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
>> > Web/client-server
>> > >> >> applications.
>> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web
examples)
>> and
>> > >> >they
>> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
>extended
>> > >> hand,
>> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
>> > >......
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Team Hepek
>> > >> >> www.hepek.com
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
>> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
>> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
>> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is
>bad.
>> > >But
>> > >> >its
>> > >> >> > market
>> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
>Every
>> > >time
>> > >> I
>> > >> >> > mentioned
>> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
>> powerbuilder
>> > >> >> > developers, 99
>> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
>> but
>> > >> >> everyone
>> > >> >> > knows
>> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
>> > >application
>> > >> >> > servers,
>> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
>> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for
several
>> > >years
>> > >> >and
>> > >> >> I
>> > >> >> > > really like it.
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > James
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is
making
>> > >> inroads
>> > >> >> > into
>> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
>> That's
>> > >on
>> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give
>away
>> > >the
>> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers,
>is
>> > >> >creating
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
>> the
>> > >> >4,5,10
>> > >> >> > BEA
>> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
>> > >server.
>> > >> >> > That's
>> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
>> with
>> > >> >that.
>> > >> >> > And,
>> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
>> > >another.
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
>people
>> > who
>> > >> >are
>> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share
>in
>> > >that
>> > >> >> > market,
>> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
>> Now,
>> > >> >take
>> > >> >> > your
>> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > --
>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
>> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
>> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>> > >> >> > > >
>> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
>> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
>> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
>> > >million
>> > >> >> > dollars
>> > >> >> > > > skills
>> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished
for
>> > >PB..at
>> > >> >> > least
>> > >> >> > > > for
>> > >> >> > > > > right now.
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
>> > >> position
>> > >> >> is
>> > >> >> > just
>> > >> >> > > > a
>> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
>> > search
>> > >> >> > engines
>> > >> >> > > > and
>> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
>> please
>> > >> show
>> > >> >> us
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > > > proof.
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > Regards
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > Mel
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
>> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
>> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
>> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
>> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like
it
>> > very
>> > >> >> much.
>> > >> >> > But
>> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
>> keyword
>> > >to
>> > >> >> > search
>> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no
>job
>> > >for
>> > >> >> > easerver
>> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
>> keyword,
>> > >> >there
>> > >> >> > are
>> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the
result.
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > > James
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>> > >message
>> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
>> > >> >satish@infsys.com
>> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
>> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
>> > >> >> > > > > >> >
>> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
>> this
>> > >> >> > slowdownl
>> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
>> > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
>> mean
>> > >my
>> > >> >PB
>> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
>> > >distributed
>> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>> > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > >
>> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


César Monroy Posted on 2002-08-30 20:09:02.0Z
From: "César Monroy" <arzabuth@prodigy.net.mx>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:09:02 -0500
Lines: 525
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <2Wo1$LGUCHA.258@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: dup-200-66-196-245.prodigy.net.mx 200.66.196.245
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:204
Article PK: 11923

Nope... The original story began with the early attempts to put a man in the
Moon. The computer scientists had little training with physics and used the
opposite sign in the gravitational equation to calculate the sling back, but
better read what Allan Klumpp said about it in this link
http://www.unt.edu/UNT/departments/CC/Benchmarks/benchmarks_html/sepoct95/lu
nar.htm and there was even an article written by Dijkstra explaining why "go
to" instructions could be considered harmful. Check this link
http://www.acm.org/classics/oct95/ to get more information about it.

In any case, after all this a joint effort began to minimize bugs and that
was called "structured programming". I supposse bugs keep crawling out in
more recent space missions, as we all sadly know! :( Could it be because the
incompletness theorem of Gödel that we can't write error-free code?

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> escribió en el mensaje
news:hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com...

> That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
> manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
> kept a loop from iterating.
>
> Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message
> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>...
> >Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't
realized
> >they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?
> >
> >
> >J
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >--------------------
> >Jonathan Baker
> >eBusiness Division
> >Sybase, Inc.
> >
> >
> >"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
> >news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> >> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
> >>
> >> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
> >went
> >> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
> >> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates
> things
> >> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
> >down
> >> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling
is
> >> way too high for me.
> >>
> >> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
> >job.
> >>
> >> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a
professional's
> >job
> >> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
> >better
> >> > in implementing machine code deployables.
> >> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
> >> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give
up
> >for
> >> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI
in
> >PB9
> >> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
> >> >
> >> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >> > >jerry,
> >> > >
> >> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
> >> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how
> >many
> >> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is
> that
> >> it
> >> > >is not compiled into machine code.
> >> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
> >> > >
> >> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
> >> > compiled
> >> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
> >> difference
> >> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to
be
> >> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
> >more
> >> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
> >> > >
> >> > >pavel
> >> > >
> >> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It
is
> >> > >compiled
> >> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way
Java
> >is
> >> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was
on
> >> about
> >> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >> > >> >hmm,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and
other
> >> web
> >> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
> >inefficient.
> >> > >not
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs
> out
> >> > >trying
> >> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of
> development
> >> > >doesnt
> >> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> >> > >> scaled-down
> >> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
> >have
> >> to
> >> > >> say
> >> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
> >> brainwashing.
> >> > >of
> >> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched,
however
> >> this
> >> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
> >multi-million
> >> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market.
bottom
> >> line
> >> > >is
> >> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and
hearts
> >of
> >> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and
> yes,
> >> the
> >> > >> >open source philosophy.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
> >which,
> >> > >> while
> >> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
> >variables,
> >> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
> >language
> >> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular
open
> >> > >source
> >> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
> >> shouldnt
> >> > >be
> >> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
> >> > >flexibility
> >> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
> >> features
> >> > >of
> >> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
> >> thought
> >> > >of.
> >> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting
> their
> >> > >format
> >> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with
that
> >> > >> >knowledge.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
> >doesnt
> >> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
> >> > 'production
> >> > >> >releases' of its software.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
> >> development
> >> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
> >sybase
> >> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
> >> period.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code
> in
> >> > c++,
> >> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant
> >code
> >> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
> >last
> >> > >> >century.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and
associated
> >> > >products
> >> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
> >> realize
> >> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
> >> > intelligence
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all
> the
> >> > odds
> >> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
> >> marketing
> >> > >> buzz
> >> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
> >> > everyine
> >> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
> >> keeping
> >> > >my
> >> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >pavel
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> >> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
> >solutions,
> >> > as
> >> > >> >well
> >> > >> >> as client/server.
> >> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and
EAServer
> >to
> >> go
> >> > >> >away
> >> > >> >> .....
> >> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the
war.
> >> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> I will give you example:
> >> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution
> for
> >> Web
> >> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
> >developer
> >> > can
> >> > >> >have
> >> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> >> > >> >framework(without
> >> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example
application
> >> that
> >> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
> >framework.
> >> > >> >>
> >> >
> >>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples,
all
> >> > based
> >> > >> on
> >> > >> >> Sybase software.
> >> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
> >living
> >> > >> proof
> >> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
> >> > Web/client-server
> >> > >> >> applications.
> >> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web
> examples)
> >> and
> >> > >> >they
> >> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
> >extended
> >> > >> hand,
> >> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their
customers?
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and
EAServer
> >> > >......
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Team Hepek
> >> > >> >> www.hepek.com
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> >> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> >> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is
> >bad.
> >> > >But
> >> > >> >its
> >> > >> >> > market
> >> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
> >Every
> >> > >time
> >> > >> I
> >> > >> >> > mentioned
> >> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
> >> powerbuilder
> >> > >> >> > developers, 99
> >> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application
Server,
> >> but
> >> > >> >> everyone
> >> > >> >> > knows
> >> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
> >> > >application
> >> > >> >> > servers,
> >> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> >> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for
> several
> >> > >years
> >> > >> >and
> >> > >> >> I
> >> > >> >> > > really like it.
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> > > James
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is
> making
> >> > >> inroads
> >> > >> >> > into
> >> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
> >> That's
> >> > >on
> >> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give
> >away
> >> > >the
> >> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards
developers,
> >is
> >> > >> >creating
> >> > >> >> > the
> >> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done
installing
> >> the
> >> > >> >4,5,10
> >> > >> >> > BEA
> >> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable
application
> >> > >server.
> >> > >> >> > That's
> >> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS
managers
> >> with
> >> > >> >that.
> >> > >> >> > And,
> >> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
> >> > >another.
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
> >people
> >> > who
> >> > >> >are
> >> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant
share
> >in
> >> > >that
> >> > >> >> > market,
> >> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and
PowerBuilder.
> >> Now,
> >> > >> >take
> >> > >> >> > your
> >> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > --
> >> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> >> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> >> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >> > >> >> > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> >> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have
the
> >> > >million
> >> > >> >> > dollars
> >> > >> >> > > > skills
> >> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished
> for
> >> > >PB..at
> >> > >> >> > least
> >> > >> >> > > > for
> >> > >> >> > > > > right now.
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's
market
> >> > >> position
> >> > >> >> is
> >> > >> >> > just
> >> > >> >> > > > a
> >> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any
job
> >> > search
> >> > >> >> > engines
> >> > >> >> > > > and
> >> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
> >> please
> >> > >> show
> >> > >> >> us
> >> > >> >> > the
> >> > >> >> > > > proof.
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > Regards
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > Mel
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> >> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> >> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> >> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> >> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like
> it
> >> > very
> >> > >> >> much.
> >> > >> >> > But
> >> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
> >> keyword
> >> > >to
> >> > >> >> > search
> >> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is
no
> >job
> >> > >for
> >> > >> >> > easerver
> >> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
> >> keyword,
> >> > >> >there
> >> > >> >> > are
> >> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the
> result.
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > > James
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote
in
> >> > >message
> >> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> >> > >> >satish@infsys.com
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals
in
> >> this
> >> > >> >> > slowdownl
> >> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
> >> > >> >> > > > > >>
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do
you
> >> mean
> >> > >my
> >> > >> >PB
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
> >> > >distributed
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >> > >> >> > > > > >>
> >> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > >
> >> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >> > >> >> > >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


Paul Horan[TeamSybase] Posted on 2002-07-05 15:21:55.0Z
From: "Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:21:55 -0400
Lines: 24
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <yXHPFlDJCHA.654@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: ny-chicagostreet2c-30.buf.adelphia.net 68.69.67.30
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:236
Article PK: 11967

I have a similar experience, back in my mainframe COBOL days..
I was researching an interface file being sent btw two systems, and found
that the "sending" system was placing a part number in position 16 of the
record, but the receiving system was looking for it in position 17. EVERY
transaction was therefore failing, (the error report wasn't being
distributed), and an entire department of clerks had been hired to re-enter
those transaction in the second system. I was told to "leave it broken",
because they couldn't just fire the union employees that were doing the data
entry...

--
Paul Horan[TeamSybase]
VCI Springfield, MA
www.vcisolutions.com

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
> manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
> kept a loop from iterating.
>


Jim Cameron Posted on 2002-09-06 13:14:14.0Z
From: Jim Cameron <jcameron@kingwoodcable.net>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:14:14 -0500
Message-ID: <qeahnu8qfokk9u6c7b25tjda5sdpi4t1lb@4ax.com>
References: <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 403
NNTP-Posting-Host: general2.centerpointenergy.com 158.81.13.133
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:198
Article PK: 19577

It was quite recent. Four years ago? It was one of the Mars
missions. It was, as Jon pointed out, a metric / english conversion
error.


On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:49:54 -0400, "Jerry Siegel"

<jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote:

>That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
>manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
>kept a loop from iterating.
>
>Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message
><8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>...
>>Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't realized
>>they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?
>>
>>
>>J
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>--------------------
>>Jonathan Baker
>>eBusiness Division
>>Sybase, Inc.
>>
>>
>>"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
>>news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
>>> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
>>>
>>> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
>>went
>>> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
>>> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates
>things
>>> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
>>down
>>> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling is
>>> way too high for me.
>>>
>>> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
>>job.
>>>
>>> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>>> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's
>>job
>>> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
>>better
>>> > in implementing machine code deployables.
>>> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
>>> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up
>>for
>>> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in
>>PB9
>>> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
>>> >
>>> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>>> > >jerry,
>>> > >
>>> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
>>> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how
>>many
>>> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is
>that
>>> it
>>> > >is not compiled into machine code.
>>> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
>>> > >
>>> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
>>> > compiled
>>> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
>>> difference
>>> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
>>> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
>>more
>>> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
>>> > >
>>> > >pavel
>>> > >
>>> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>>> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
>>> > >compiled
>>> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java
>>is
>>> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
>>> about
>>> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>>> > >> >hmm,
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
>>> web
>>> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
>>inefficient.
>>> > >not
>>> > >> a
>>> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs
>out
>>> > >trying
>>> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of
>development
>>> > >doesnt
>>> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
>>> > >> scaled-down
>>> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
>>have
>>> to
>>> > >> say
>>> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
>>> brainwashing.
>>> > >of
>>> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
>>> this
>>> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
>>multi-million
>>> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
>>> line
>>> > >is
>>> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts
>>of
>>> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and
>yes,
>>> the
>>> > >> >open source philosophy.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
>>which,
>>> > >> while
>>> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
>>variables,
>>> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
>>language
>>> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
>>> > >source
>>> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
>>> shouldnt
>>> > >be
>>> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
>>> > >flexibility
>>> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
>>> features
>>> > >of
>>> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
>>> thought
>>> > >of.
>>> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting
>their
>>> > >format
>>> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
>>> > >> >knowledge.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
>>doesnt
>>> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
>>> > 'production
>>> > >> >releases' of its software.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
>>> development
>>> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
>>sybase
>>> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
>>> period.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code
>in
>>> > c++,
>>> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant
>>code
>>> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
>>last
>>> > >> >century.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
>>> > >products
>>> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
>>> realize
>>> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
>>> > intelligence
>>> > >> of
>>> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all
>the
>>> > odds
>>> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
>>> marketing
>>> > >> buzz
>>> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
>>> > everyine
>>> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
>>> keeping
>>> > >my
>>> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >pavel
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
>>> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
>>solutions,
>>> > as
>>> > >> >well
>>> > >> >> as client/server.
>>> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer
>>to
>>> go
>>> > >> >away
>>> > >> >> .....
>>> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
>>> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> I will give you example:
>>> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution
>for
>>> Web
>>> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
>>developer
>>> > can
>>> > >> >have
>>> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
>>> > >> >framework(without
>>> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
>>> that
>>> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
>>framework.
>>> > >> >>
>>> >
>>>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
>>> > based
>>> > >> on
>>> > >> >> Sybase software.
>>> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
>>living
>>> > >> proof
>>> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
>>> > Web/client-server
>>> > >> >> applications.
>>> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web
>examples)
>>> and
>>> > >> >they
>>> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
>>extended
>>> > >> hand,
>>> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
>>> > >......
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Team Hepek
>>> > >> >> www.hepek.com
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>>> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>>> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
>>> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
>>> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is
>>bad.
>>> > >But
>>> > >> >its
>>> > >> >> > market
>>> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
>>Every
>>> > >time
>>> > >> I
>>> > >> >> > mentioned
>>> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
>>> powerbuilder
>>> > >> >> > developers, 99
>>> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
>>> but
>>> > >> >> everyone
>>> > >> >> > knows
>>> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
>>> > >application
>>> > >> >> > servers,
>>> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
>>> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for
>several
>>> > >years
>>> > >> >and
>>> > >> >> I
>>> > >> >> > > really like it.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > James
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is
>making
>>> > >> inroads
>>> > >> >> > into
>>> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
>>> That's
>>> > >on
>>> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give
>>away
>>> > >the
>>> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers,
>>is
>>> > >> >creating
>>> > >> >> > the
>>> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
>>> the
>>> > >> >4,5,10
>>> > >> >> > BEA
>>> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
>>> > >server.
>>> > >> >> > That's
>>> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
>>> with
>>> > >> >that.
>>> > >> >> > And,
>>> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
>>> > >another.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
>>people
>>> > who
>>> > >> >are
>>> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share
>>in
>>> > >that
>>> > >> >> > market,
>>> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
>>> Now,
>>> > >> >take
>>> > >> >> > your
>>> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > --
>>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
>>> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
>>> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
>>> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
>>> > >million
>>> > >> >> > dollars
>>> > >> >> > > > skills
>>> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished
>for
>>> > >PB..at
>>> > >> >> > least
>>> > >> >> > > > for
>>> > >> >> > > > > right now.
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
>>> > >> position
>>> > >> >> is
>>> > >> >> > just
>>> > >> >> > > > a
>>> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
>>> > search
>>> > >> >> > engines
>>> > >> >> > > > and
>>> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
>>> please
>>> > >> show
>>> > >> >> us
>>> > >> >> > the
>>> > >> >> > > > proof.
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > Regards
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > Mel
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
>>> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
>>> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>>> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
>>> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
>>> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like
>it
>>> > very
>>> > >> >> much.
>>> > >> >> > But
>>> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
>>> keyword
>>> > >to
>>> > >> >> > search
>>> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no
>>job
>>> > >for
>>> > >> >> > easerver
>>> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
>>> keyword,
>>> > >> >there
>>> > >> >> > are
>>> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the
>result.
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > > James
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>>> > >message
>>> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
>>> > >> >satish@infsys.com
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
>>> this
>>> > >> >> > slowdownl
>>> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
>>> > >> >> > > > > >>
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
>>> mean
>>> > >my
>>> > >> >PB
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
>>> > >distributed
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>>> > >> >> > > > > >>
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>>> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] Posted on 2002-07-05 18:54:14.0Z
From: "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com>
Organization: TeamSybase [12.13.226.18]
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: AspNNTP 1.50 (Advent 2000, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <zCfPbVFJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 14:54:14 -0400
Lines: 404
NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.150.141.215
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:235
Article PK: 19588

FWIW:

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/5.65.html#subj1

On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:49:54 -0400,
in news.job_postings

Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote:
>That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
>manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
>kept a loop from iterating.
>
>Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message
><8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>...
>>Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't realized
>>they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?
>>
>>
>>J
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>--------------------
>>Jonathan Baker
>>eBusiness Division
>>Sybase, Inc.
>>
>>
>>"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
>>news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
>>> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
>>>
>>> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
>>went
>>> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
>>> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates
>things
>>> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
>>down
>>> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling is
>>> way too high for me.
>>>
>>> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
>>job.
>>>
>>> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>>> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a professional's
>>job
>>> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
>>better
>>> > in implementing machine code deployables.
>>> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
>>> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give up
>>for
>>> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI in
>>PB9
>>> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
>>> >
>>> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>>> > >jerry,
>>> > >
>>> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
>>> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing how
>>many
>>> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is
>that
>>> it
>>> > >is not compiled into machine code.
>>> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
>>> > >
>>> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
>>> > compiled
>>> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
>>> difference
>>> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to be
>>> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
>>more
>>> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
>>> > >
>>> > >pavel
>>> > >
>>> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>>> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It is
>>> > >compiled
>>> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way Java
>>is
>>> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was on
>>> about
>>> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
>>> > >> >hmm,
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and other
>>> web
>>> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
>>inefficient.
>>> > >not
>>> > >> a
>>> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs
>out
>>> > >trying
>>> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of
>development
>>> > >doesnt
>>> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
>>> > >> scaled-down
>>> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
>>have
>>> to
>>> > >> say
>>> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
>>> brainwashing.
>>> > >of
>>> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched, however
>>> this
>>> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
>>multi-million
>>> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market. bottom
>>> line
>>> > >is
>>> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and hearts
>>of
>>> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and
>yes,
>>> the
>>> > >> >open source philosophy.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
>>which,
>>> > >> while
>>> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
>>variables,
>>> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
>>language
>>> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular open
>>> > >source
>>> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
>>> shouldnt
>>> > >be
>>> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
>>> > >flexibility
>>> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
>>> features
>>> > >of
>>> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
>>> thought
>>> > >of.
>>> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting
>their
>>> > >format
>>> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with that
>>> > >> >knowledge.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
>>doesnt
>>> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
>>> > 'production
>>> > >> >releases' of its software.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
>>> development
>>> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
>>sybase
>>> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
>>> period.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my code
>in
>>> > c++,
>>> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of redundant
>>code
>>> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
>>last
>>> > >> >century.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and associated
>>> > >products
>>> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
>>> realize
>>> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
>>> > intelligence
>>> > >> of
>>> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all
>the
>>> > odds
>>> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
>>> marketing
>>> > >> buzz
>>> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
>>> > everyine
>>> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
>>> keeping
>>> > >my
>>> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should be.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >pavel
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
>>> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
>>solutions,
>>> > as
>>> > >> >well
>>> > >> >> as client/server.
>>> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and EAServer
>>to
>>> go
>>> > >> >away
>>> > >> >> .....
>>> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the war.
>>> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not function.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> I will give you example:
>>> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution
>for
>>> Web
>>> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
>>developer
>>> > can
>>> > >> >have
>>> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
>>> > >> >framework(without
>>> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example application
>>> that
>>> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
>>framework.
>>> > >> >>
>>> >
>>>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples, all
>>> > based
>>> > >> on
>>> > >> >> Sybase software.
>>> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
>>living
>>> > >> proof
>>> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
>>> > Web/client-server
>>> > >> >> applications.
>>> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web
>examples)
>>> and
>>> > >> >they
>>> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
>>extended
>>> > >> hand,
>>> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their customers?
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and EAServer
>>> > >......
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Team Hepek
>>> > >> >> www.hepek.com
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
>>> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
>>> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
>>> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
>>> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it is
>>bad.
>>> > >But
>>> > >> >its
>>> > >> >> > market
>>> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
>>Every
>>> > >time
>>> > >> I
>>> > >> >> > mentioned
>>> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
>>> powerbuilder
>>> > >> >> > developers, 99
>>> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application Server,
>>> but
>>> > >> >> everyone
>>> > >> >> > knows
>>> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
>>> > >application
>>> > >> >> > servers,
>>> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
>>> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for
>several
>>> > >years
>>> > >> >and
>>> > >> >> I
>>> > >> >> > > really like it.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > James
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is
>making
>>> > >> inroads
>>> > >> >> > into
>>> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
>>> That's
>>> > >on
>>> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people give
>>away
>>> > >the
>>> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards developers,
>>is
>>> > >> >creating
>>> > >> >> > the
>>> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done installing
>>> the
>>> > >> >4,5,10
>>> > >> >> > BEA
>>> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable application
>>> > >server.
>>> > >> >> > That's
>>> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS managers
>>> with
>>> > >> >that.
>>> > >> >> > And,
>>> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works in
>>> > >another.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
>>people
>>> > who
>>> > >> >are
>>> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant share
>>in
>>> > >that
>>> > >> >> > market,
>>> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and PowerBuilder.
>>> Now,
>>> > >> >take
>>> > >> >> > your
>>> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > --
>>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
>>> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
>>> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
>>> > >> >> > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
>>> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have the
>>> > >million
>>> > >> >> > dollars
>>> > >> >> > > > skills
>>> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished
>for
>>> > >PB..at
>>> > >> >> > least
>>> > >> >> > > > for
>>> > >> >> > > > > right now.
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's market
>>> > >> position
>>> > >> >> is
>>> > >> >> > just
>>> > >> >> > > > a
>>> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any job
>>> > search
>>> > >> >> > engines
>>> > >> >> > > > and
>>> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their competitors.
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
>>> please
>>> > >> show
>>> > >> >> us
>>> > >> >> > the
>>> > >> >> > > > proof.
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > Regards
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > Mel
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
>>> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
>>> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
>>> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
>>> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
>>> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I like
>it
>>> > very
>>> > >> >> much.
>>> > >> >> > But
>>> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
>>> keyword
>>> > >to
>>> > >> >> > search
>>> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is no
>>job
>>> > >for
>>> > >> >> > easerver
>>> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
>>> keyword,
>>> > >> >there
>>> > >> >> > are
>>> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the
>result.
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > > James
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote in
>>> > >message
>>> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
>>> > >> >satish@infsys.com
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals in
>>> this
>>> > >> >> > slowdownl
>>> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
>>> > >> >> > > > > >>
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do you
>>> mean
>>> > >my
>>> > >> >PB
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
>>> > >distributed
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
>>> > >> >> > > > > >>
>>> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > >
>>> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
>>> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Jonathan Baker [Sybase] Posted on 2002-07-06 15:40:34.0Z
From: "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" <bakerj@sybase.com>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <zCfPbVFJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:40:34 -0400
Lines: 550
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <kzGoPUQJCHA.196@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: washdc3-ar2-4-64-223-043.washdc3.elnk.dsl.genuity.net 4.64.223.43
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:234
Article PK: 11965

Bruce:

Very interesting! I stand corrected.

(Gotta remember to check out what Jason tells me from now on... ;-) )


Jonathan



--
--------------------
Jonathan Baker
eBusiness Division
Sybase, Inc.


"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com>

wrote in message news:zCfPbVFJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com...
> FWIW:
>
> http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/5.65.html#subj1
>
> On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:49:54 -0400,
> in news.job_postings
> Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote:
> >That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
> >manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
> >kept a loop from iterating.
> >
> >Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message
> ><8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>...
> >>Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't
realized
> >>they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?
> >>
> >>
> >>J
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>--------------------
> >>Jonathan Baker
> >>eBusiness Division
> >>Sybase, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
> >>news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
> >>>
> >>> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
> >>went
> >>> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
> >>> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates
> >things
> >>> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
> >>down
> >>> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling
is
> >>> way too high for me.
> >>>
> >>> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
> >>job.
> >>>
> >>> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >>> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a
professional's
> >>job
> >>> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
> >>better
> >>> > in implementing machine code deployables.
> >>> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
> >>> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give
up
> >>for
> >>> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI
in
> >>PB9
> >>> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
> >>> >
> >>> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >>> > >jerry,
> >>> > >
> >>> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
> >>> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing
how
> >>many
> >>> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is
> >that
> >>> it
> >>> > >is not compiled into machine code.
> >>> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
> >>> > >
> >>> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
> >>> > compiled
> >>> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
> >>> difference
> >>> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to
be
> >>> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
> >>more
> >>> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >pavel
> >>> > >
> >>> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >>> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It
is
> >>> > >compiled
> >>> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way
Java
> >>is
> >>> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was
on
> >>> about
> >>> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >>> > >> >hmm,
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and
other
> >>> web
> >>> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
> >>inefficient.
> >>> > >not
> >>> > >> a
> >>> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs
> >out
> >>> > >trying
> >>> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of
> >development
> >>> > >doesnt
> >>> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> >>> > >> scaled-down
> >>> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
> >>have
> >>> to
> >>> > >> say
> >>> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
> >>> brainwashing.
> >>> > >of
> >>> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched,
however
> >>> this
> >>> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
> >>multi-million
> >>> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market.
bottom
> >>> line
> >>> > >is
> >>> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and
hearts
> >>of
> >>> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and
> >yes,
> >>> the
> >>> > >> >open source philosophy.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
> >>which,
> >>> > >> while
> >>> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
> >>variables,
> >>> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
> >>language
> >>> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular
open
> >>> > >source
> >>> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
> >>> shouldnt
> >>> > >be
> >>> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
> >>> > >flexibility
> >>> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
> >>> features
> >>> > >of
> >>> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
> >>> thought
> >>> > >of.
> >>> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting
> >their
> >>> > >format
> >>> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with
that
> >>> > >> >knowledge.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
> >>doesnt
> >>> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
> >>> > 'production
> >>> > >> >releases' of its software.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
> >>> development
> >>> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
> >>sybase
> >>> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
> >>> period.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my
code
> >in
> >>> > c++,
> >>> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of
redundant
> >>code
> >>> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
> >>last
> >>> > >> >century.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and
associated
> >>> > >products
> >>> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
> >>> realize
> >>> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
> >>> > intelligence
> >>> > >> of
> >>> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all
> >the
> >>> > odds
> >>> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
> >>> marketing
> >>> > >> buzz
> >>> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
> >>> > everyine
> >>> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
> >>> keeping
> >>> > >my
> >>> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should
be.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >pavel
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
> >>solutions,
> >>> > as
> >>> > >> >well
> >>> > >> >> as client/server.
> >>> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and
EAServer
> >>to
> >>> go
> >>> > >> >away
> >>> > >> >> .....
> >>> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the
war.
> >>> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not
function.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> I will give you example:
> >>> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution
> >for
> >>> Web
> >>> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
> >>developer
> >>> > can
> >>> > >> >have
> >>> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> >>> > >> >framework(without
> >>> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example
application
> >>> that
> >>> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
> >>framework.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> >
>
>>>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples,
all
> >>> > based
> >>> > >> on
> >>> > >> >> Sybase software.
> >>> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
> >>living
> >>> > >> proof
> >>> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
> >>> > Web/client-server
> >>> > >> >> applications.
> >>> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web
> >examples)
> >>> and
> >>> > >> >they
> >>> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
> >>extended
> >>> > >> hand,
> >>> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their
customers?
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and
EAServer
> >>> > >......
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> Team Hepek
> >>> > >> >> www.hepek.com
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >>> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >>> > >> >> >
> >>> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> >>> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it
is
> >>bad.
> >>> > >But
> >>> > >> >its
> >>> > >> >> > market
> >>> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
> >>Every
> >>> > >time
> >>> > >> I
> >>> > >> >> > mentioned
> >>> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
> >>> powerbuilder
> >>> > >> >> > developers, 99
> >>> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application
Server,
> >>> but
> >>> > >> >> everyone
> >>> > >> >> > knows
> >>> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
> >>> > >application
> >>> > >> >> > servers,
> >>> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> >>> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for
> >several
> >>> > >years
> >>> > >> >and
> >>> > >> >> I
> >>> > >> >> > > really like it.
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > James
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is
> >making
> >>> > >> inroads
> >>> > >> >> > into
> >>> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
> >>> That's
> >>> > >on
> >>> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people
give
> >>away
> >>> > >the
> >>> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards
developers,
> >>is
> >>> > >> >creating
> >>> > >> >> > the
> >>> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done
installing
> >>> the
> >>> > >> >4,5,10
> >>> > >> >> > BEA
> >>> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable
application
> >>> > >server.
> >>> > >> >> > That's
> >>> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS
managers
> >>> with
> >>> > >> >that.
> >>> > >> >> > And,
> >>> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works
in
> >>> > >another.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
> >>people
> >>> > who
> >>> > >> >are
> >>> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant
share
> >>in
> >>> > >that
> >>> > >> >> > market,
> >>> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and
PowerBuilder.
> >>> Now,
> >>> > >> >take
> >>> > >> >> > your
> >>> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > --
> >>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> >>> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> >>> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have
the
> >>> > >million
> >>> > >> >> > dollars
> >>> > >> >> > > > skills
> >>> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished
> >for
> >>> > >PB..at
> >>> > >> >> > least
> >>> > >> >> > > > for
> >>> > >> >> > > > > right now.
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's
market
> >>> > >> position
> >>> > >> >> is
> >>> > >> >> > just
> >>> > >> >> > > > a
> >>> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any
job
> >>> > search
> >>> > >> >> > engines
> >>> > >> >> > > > and
> >>> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their
competitors.
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
> >>> please
> >>> > >> show
> >>> > >> >> us
> >>> > >> >> > the
> >>> > >> >> > > > proof.
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > Regards
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > Mel
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> >>> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> >>> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I
like
> >it
> >>> > very
> >>> > >> >> much.
> >>> > >> >> > But
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
> >>> keyword
> >>> > >to
> >>> > >> >> > search
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is
no
> >>job
> >>> > >for
> >>> > >> >> > easerver
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
> >>> keyword,
> >>> > >> >there
> >>> > >> >> > are
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the
> >result.
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > > James
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote
in
> >>> > >message
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> >>> > >> >satish@infsys.com
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals
in
> >>> this
> >>> > >> >> > slowdownl
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >>
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do
you
> >>> mean
> >>> > >my
> >>> > >> >PB
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
> >>> > >distributed
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >>
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >>> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> >
> >>> > >> >> >
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp


Jim Cameron Posted on 2002-09-06 13:15:47.0Z
From: Jim Cameron <jcameron@kingwoodcable.net>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:15:47 -0500
Message-ID: <njahnuce7vs1da8h2698296oo442h1vl5o@4ax.com>
References: <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <zCfPbVFJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <kzGoPUQJCHA.196@forums.sybase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: general2.centerpointenergy.com 158.81.13.133
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:197
Article PK: 19574

No, you was right.....

On Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:40:34 -0400, "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]"

<bakerj@sybase.com> wrote:

>Bruce:
>
>Very interesting! I stand corrected.
>
>(Gotta remember to check out what Jason tells me from now on... ;-) )
>
>
>Jonathan


Mark Maslow Posted on 2002-07-08 17:30:50.0Z
From: "Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org>
References: <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com> <MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com> <peN6olQeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <LrmfznoeBHA.314@forums.sybase.com> <3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com> <tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com> <Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com> <E7rpnWxGCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <HEv$WTmICHA.378@forums.sybase.com> <IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com> <pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com> <hS6YqxCJCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <zCfPbVFJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Is there any demand for PowerBuilder Professionals?
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:30:50 -0700
Lines: 542
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Message-ID: <3DsnSbqJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>
Newsgroups: news.job_postings
NNTP-Posting-Host: machine001.sierraclub.org 207.90.163.1
Path: forums-1-dub!forums-master.sybase.com!forums.sybase.com
Xref: forums-1-dub news.job_postings:232
Article PK: 19590

Well, perhaps my story was apocryphal, although I'm sure I heard it as I
reported it - sounded good at the time.

There are some relavant links on James Gosling's web page. One is about the
Ariane 5 failure, which was essentially caused by an uncaught exception when
a float to an int conversion resulted in an overflow, and there is also a
links to the report on the Mars Polar Lander.

http://java.sun.com/people/jag/

"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com>

wrote in message news:zCfPbVFJCHA.1020@forums.sybase.com...
> FWIW:
>
> http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/5.65.html#subj1
>
> On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:49:54 -0400,
> in news.job_postings
> Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote:
> >That happened, but I think the reference was to a satellite launch before
> >manned flights, and if I recall it was a period instead of a comma, which
> >kept a loop from iterating.
> >
> >Jonathan Baker [Sybase] wrote in message
> ><8f3eqQwICHA.1020@forums.sybase.com>...
> >>Wasn't that one of the Mars explorers, where the developers hadn't
realized
> >>they needed to convert from English measures to Metric?
> >>
> >>
> >>J
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>--------------------
> >>Jonathan Baker
> >>eBusiness Division
> >>Sybase, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
> >>news:pZmdqVsICHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> IMHO, weak typing is a very bad thing.
> >>>
> >>> I remember a story about some multi-million $ unmanned spacecraft that
> >>went
> >>> off to parts unknown because the Fortran programmer had misspelled a
> >>> variable name. You think it's a good thing when a compiler creates
> >things
> >>> for you if they're not already declared? I spent way too long chasing
> >>down
> >>> something similar in an old dBase program. The price of a misspelling
is
> >>> way too high for me.
> >>>
> >>> But, by all means, use whatever you think is the best language for the
> >>job.
> >>>
> >>> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >>> news:IL6CQzpICHA.654@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > I agree with you that there are many good tools, that a
professional's
> >>job
> >>> > is to choose an appropriate tool for the task, and that PB could do
> >>better
> >>> > in implementing machine code deployables.
> >>> > IMPO, strong typing is generally a good thing in that it reduces the
> >>> > potential for subtle bugs. Total flexibility is a trade-off we give
up
> >>for
> >>> > the rapid development of a 4GL. I'll be interested to see what PBNI
in
> >>PB9
> >>> > can do to help with tasks that PB is currently not well suited to.
> >>> >
> >>> > Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >>> > >jerry,
> >>> > >
> >>> > >though semantically correct, its rather irrelevant =]
> >>> > >i did use the wrong term, and i am deeply sorry for that, seeing
how
> >>many
> >>> > >people suffered as a result. however, the important distinction is
> >that
> >>> it
> >>> > >is not compiled into machine code.
> >>> > >(yes, i know that it could be, but its not accepted practice afaik)
> >>> > >
> >>> > >if you look closely at how php for example interprets php code/code
> >>> > compiled
> >>> > >with the zend optimizer, you will see that there isnt that much
> >>> difference
> >>> > >in functionality. indeed, there is no reason why powerscript has to
be
> >>> > >strictly typed in such a draconian way, nor is there any reason why
> >>more
> >>> > >flexibility cant be gotten out of pcode.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >pavel
> >>> > >
> >>> > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >>> > >news:m#dbxKUICHA.378@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> Just one small point of fact: PowerScript is not interpreted. It
is
> >>> > >compiled
> >>> > >> into p-code, which is run by the PBVM This is much like the way
Java
> >>is
> >>> > >> compiled to byte-code which is run by the JVM. Of course, PB was
on
> >>> about
> >>> > >> version 5 by the time Java came out.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Pavel Galynin wrote in message ...
> >>> > >> >hmm,
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >i might get flamed, but i disagree. i tried using web dws and
other
> >>> web
> >>> > >> >whatnot in pb, and just as i expected, it was bloated and
> >>inefficient.
> >>> > >not
> >>> > >> a
> >>> > >> >biggie, since our apps are client/server (were pulling our hairs
> >out
> >>> > >trying
> >>> > >> >to move all that ugly code to n-tier ;), but the ease of
> >development
> >>> > >doesnt
> >>> > >> >compensate for all the drawbacks. we will soon be implementing a
> >>> > >> scaled-down
> >>> > >> >web interface, and were going to use php.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >ive seen 'linux & perl' brainwashing mentioned in this thread. i
> >>have
> >>> to
> >>> > >> say
> >>> > >> >its much better than 'windows and vb' or 'windows and pb'
> >>> brainwashing.
> >>> > >of
> >>> > >> >course, comparing perl to 4gl tools is rather far-fetched,
however
> >>> this
> >>> > >> >'brainswashing', as someone put it, isnt the result of a
> >>multi-million
> >>> > >> >dollar marketing budget or a monopoly in the desktop market.
bottom
> >>> line
> >>> > >is
> >>> > >> >linux, perl, php and the likes gained their market share and
hearts
> >>of
> >>> > >> >developers by virtue of the sheer quality of code, features and
> >yes,
> >>> the
> >>> > >> >open source philosophy.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >php, for example, is a free tool, yet the language has features
> >>which,
> >>> > >> while
> >>> > >> >very much needed by developers, are absent in pb (variable
> >>variables,
> >>> > >> >extensions just to name a few). why is it that an interpeted
> >>language
> >>> > >> >(powerscript) is more rigid than a compiled one (c++)? popular
open
> >>> > >source
> >>> > >> >development tools dont scream 'we know best what you should and
> >>> shouldnt
> >>> > >be
> >>> > >> >able to do, thats why we hardcoded everything and took away the
> >>> > >flexibility
> >>> > >> >so you wouldnt break our code. rather they urge you to use the
> >>> features
> >>> > >of
> >>> > >> >the language as building blocks in a way the authors never even
> >>> thought
> >>> > >of.
> >>> > >> >they do that by exposing internal data structures, documenting
> >their
> >>> > >format
> >>> > >> >and encouraging people to extend the functionality armed with
that
> >>> > >> >knowledge.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >sybase is resting on its laurels (which are doubtful at best),
> >>doesnt
> >>> > >> >implement new features and insists on releasing alpha-quality
> >>> > 'production
> >>> > >> >releases' of its software.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >i find it very disappointing, since pb is *the best* rad gui
> >>> development
> >>> > >> >tool, and given the right direction and sufficient support from
> >>sybase
> >>> > >> >management could evolve into a dominant tool for rad development
> >>> period.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >yet im left implementing processing-intensive portions of my
code
> >in
> >>> > c++,
> >>> > >> >writing the web interface in php and scribbling tons of
redundant
> >>code
> >>> > >> >because the brains behind the pb dev strategy lay dormant in the
> >>last
> >>> > >> >century.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >its time to wake up, embrace the change and make pb and
associated
> >>> > >products
> >>> > >> >into all that they can be, namely the leading rad dev toolset. i
> >>> realize
> >>> > >> >sybase cant go opensource, but please dont underestimate the
> >>> > intelligence
> >>> > >> of
> >>> > >> >the pb developer community (people that still use pb despite all
> >the
> >>> > odds
> >>> > >> >are obviously intelligent enough to have seen through all the
> >>> marketing
> >>> > >> buzz
> >>> > >> >and chose to continue using pb because of its superiority, which
> >>> > everyine
> >>> > >> >here seems to be in consensus on).
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >im anxiously awaiting the start of pb9 beta to try out the pbni,
> >>> keeping
> >>> > >my
> >>> > >> >fingers crossed that itll turn out to be everything it should
be.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >pavel
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >"Tana" <tana@acedsl.com> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >news:Byqa8xjiBHA.146@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> We all know that Sybase has the greatest software for Web
> >>solutions,
> >>> > as
> >>> > >> >well
> >>> > >> >> as client/server.
> >>> > >> >> It is very sad to see such a great software like PB and
EAServer
> >>to
> >>> go
> >>> > >> >away
> >>> > >> >> .....
> >>> > >> >> But the fact is Sybase is loosing the battle, maybe even the
war.
> >>> > >> >> I blame Sybase marketing for this, they simply do not
function.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> I will give you example:
> >>> > >> >> My company developed a PB/EAServer framework, a great solution
> >for
> >>> Web
> >>> > >> >> development, as well as client-server apps. An average PB
> >>developer
> >>> > can
> >>> > >> >have
> >>> > >> >> his/her first Web application in mater of hours using our
> >>> > >> >framework(without
> >>> > >> >> any Java or Web knowledge). There is live Web example
application
> >>> that
> >>> > >> >> represents some basic services and utilities provided by
> >>framework.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> >
>
>>>http://66.114.65.75/Hepek/Examples/ExamplesLogin.jsp?props_file=Examples
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> We notified Sybase about our framework and live Web examples,
all
> >>> > based
> >>> > >> on
> >>> > >> >> Sybase software.
> >>> > >> >> We asked them to check the examples, since our framework is a
> >>living
> >>> > >> proof
> >>> > >> >> that Sybase software is great solution for developing
> >>> > Web/client-server
> >>> > >> >> applications.
> >>> > >> >> Guess what - no person from Sybase ever run the examples.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> We offer them the best marketing tool available(live Web
> >examples)
> >>> and
> >>> > >> >they
> >>> > >> >> showed no interest at all. If they do not want to shake our
> >>extended
> >>> > >> hand,
> >>> > >> >> how can you expect them to extend their hand to their
customers?
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> Sad, very sad to loose such a great software like PB and
EAServer
> >>> > >......
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> Team Hepek
> >>> > >> >> www.hepek.com
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> "John Zhang" <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >> news:tADqKsNfBHA.362@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> > Yes,EAServer is good,but the worst is nobody knows this
> >>> > >> >> > product,developers,managers,clients,nobody knows what it is.
> >>> > >> >> >
> >>> > >> >> > James Liu <jliu@jonview.com> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >> > news:3C0BA479.84C79CE3@hotmail.com...
> >>> > >> >> > > Hi, Jonathan :
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > I agree that EAServer is good, and no one said it
is
> >>bad.
> >>> > >But
> >>> > >> >its
> >>> > >> >> > market
> >>> > >> >> > > is really small, no one knows what EAServer is except us.
> >>Every
> >>> > >time
> >>> > >> I
> >>> > >> >> > mentioned
> >>> > >> >> > > 'EAServer' to the other J2EE developers or even some
> >>> powerbuilder
> >>> > >> >> > developers, 99
> >>> > >> >> > > percent of them do not know EAServer is a application
Server,
> >>> but
> >>> > >> >> everyone
> >>> > >> >> > knows
> >>> > >> >> > > what Weblogic is, and some of them can also name 5 other
> >>> > >application
> >>> > >> >> > servers,
> >>> > >> >> > > but no one knows EAServer.
> >>> > >> >> > > I felt very upset every time, I used EAServer for
> >several
> >>> > >years
> >>> > >> >and
> >>> > >> >> I
> >>> > >> >> > > really like it.
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > James
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]" wrote:
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Sure thing Mel.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > If you watch carefully, you will see that EAServer is
> >making
> >>> > >> inroads
> >>> > >> >> > into
> >>> > >> >> > > > production systems, at the cost of development systems.
> >>> That's
> >>> > >on
> >>> > >> >> > > > purpose... the real money is production (most people
give
> >>away
> >>> > >the
> >>> > >> >> > > > development servers for free).
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > BEA, with it's marketing engine geared towards
developers,
> >>is
> >>> > >> >creating
> >>> > >> >> > the
> >>> > >> >> > > > development environment. But, when you get done
installing
> >>> the
> >>> > >> >4,5,10
> >>> > >> >> > BEA
> >>> > >> >> > > > server, perhaps it's time to look at a scalable
application
> >>> > >server.
> >>> > >> >> > That's
> >>> > >> >> > > > where we hit hard - we are targeting CEO's and MIS
managers
> >>> with
> >>> > >> >that.
> >>> > >> >> > And,
> >>> > >> >> > > > remember, J2EE is J2EE. What works in one place works
in
> >>> > >another.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Also, before you lose heart, take a look around at the
> >>people
> >>> > who
> >>> > >> >are
> >>> > >> >> > > > implementing portal solutions. We have a significant
share
> >>in
> >>> > >that
> >>> > >> >> > market,
> >>> > >> >> > > > and it runs on (you guessed it) EAServer and
PowerBuilder.
> >>> Now,
> >>> > >> >take
> >>> > >> >> > your
> >>> > >> >> > > > skills to that customer... watch what happens.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Responses, and hey suggestions please, are welcome!
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > --
> >>> > >> >> > > > Jonathan Baker
> >>> > >> >> > > > eBusiness Division
> >>> > >> >> > > > Sybase, Inc.
> >>> > >> >> > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > "Mel" <abc> wrote in message
> >>> > >> >news:qjGZw7ieBHA.314@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> > > > > I agree. It does not matter if you're only PB or have
the
> >>> > >million
> >>> > >> >> > dollars
> >>> > >> >> > > > skills
> >>> > >> >> > > > > (Jaguar/EAServer)to go with it. The market is finished
> >for
> >>> > >PB..at
> >>> > >> >> > least
> >>> > >> >> > > > for
> >>> > >> >> > > > > right now.
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > All the Sybase hype about Jaguar/EAServer and it's
market
> >>> > >> position
> >>> > >> >> is
> >>> > >> >> > just
> >>> > >> >> > > > a
> >>> > >> >> > > > > farce. If you want prove do a search on these at any
job
> >>> > search
> >>> > >> >> > engines
> >>> > >> >> > > > and
> >>> > >> >> > > > > you'll find out. Also do a search on their
competitors.
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > If anyone from Sybase is willing to contest this, then
> >>> please
> >>> > >> show
> >>> > >> >> us
> >>> > >> >> > the
> >>> > >> >> > > > proof.
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > Regards
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > Mel
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:18 -0500,
> >>> > >> >> > > > > in news.job_postings
> >>> > >> >> > > > > John Zhang <zhangj@pendylum.com> wrote:
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >I think watever he is
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >did you read this posting:
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >Hello :
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > > I use Jaguar CTS for several years, and I
like
> >it
> >>> > very
> >>> > >> >> much.
> >>> > >> >> > But
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >last week, when I used 'EAServer' or 'Jaguar CTS' as
> >>> keyword
> >>> > >to
> >>> > >> >> > search
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >jobs in several popular job post web sites, there is
no
> >>job
> >>> > >for
> >>> > >> >> > easerver
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >at all, and when I use 'Weblogic' or ' Websphere' as
> >>> keyword,
> >>> > >> >there
> >>> > >> >> > are
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >thousands jobs there, I am so surprised about the
> >result.
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > > James
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >what do you think???
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase] <see_msg@sprynet.com> wrote
in
> >>> > >message
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >news:MPG.166f5c50c32036209897d2@forums.sybase.com...
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> In article <32w1qoFeBHA.330@forums.sybase.com>,
> >>> > >> >satish@infsys.com
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> says...
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> > Folks,
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> > How was the market for PowerBuilder professionals
in
> >>> this
> >>> > >> >> > slowdownl
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >economy?
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >>
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> You probably need to clarify this a bit. What do
you
> >>> mean
> >>> > >my
> >>> > >> >PB
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> PRofessional? Are you familiar with EAServer/PB,
> >>> > >distributed
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> architectures or are you strictly a PB developer?
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >>
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >> Mark
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > >
> >>> > >> >> > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> >>> > >> >> > > > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
> >>> > >> >> > >
> >>> > >> >> >
> >>> > >> >> >
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp