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Open letter to ?Sybase?

9 posts in General Discussion (old) Last posting was on 2000-02-26 14:30:45.0Z
A consultant Posted on 2000-02-25 08:41:04.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
From: "A consultant" <bina@chello.at>
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Subject: Open letter to ?Sybase?
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Hi guys,

I just wanna know if I am the only frustrated guy here.
Here is a small list what really disturbs me:

a) PB 7
*) Unstable (I see it GPFing on the left and on the right and in front of me)
*) IDE is very, very slow now
*) It's not userfriendly (for ex. Debugger only with mouse??)
(ENTERPRISE product??????)
b) PowerSite
*) Unstable (I see it GPFing on the left and on the right and in front of me)
*) No bug fixes for a long time, M$ oriented, useless.
*) HTMLDW DTC is just for eMusic seminars, but not for production (everything
hardcoded, everything is done with the ObjMod,.....)
c) PowerDynamo
*) No bug fixes for a long time.
d) Support
*) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
*) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working example.....)
e) Sybase general
*) Information 'hiding' (how many of you know about the Catchup ebf, how many
have PB build 8017, who knows what is fixed in an ebf)
*) Too long time until we get a bugfix
HTML DW bugs are there since 2 years
**) German date support (yes, I know techdoc available, but...)
**) Background color of some DWs (Freeform)
**) Checkboxes

**) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
**) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
*) New features NEVER work
**) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
**) PB7 is a crises (autoscript, slow)
*) Things they have worked are not working in a new Major release
**) I have to close PB when I build a project and want to change the app
**) Always Date problems
**) Installation is horrible (3.5 upgrade of Jaguar, try to install a
Designer7 update on a Designer 6.1.1, Anywhere in last releases on German
platforms,......)
*) EBFs and Patches very very late (PB7 is one year old and look at it)
By the way we have a CT (30 PB-Enterpr. licenses, 5 EAStudios upd. subs.
since 4 years and he is waiting for EAStudio 3.5 (HAHA, maybe he gets PB8 in
2010))

Yes, I know there is a workaround for this or that, but my projects lifes from
workarounds! That begins with an upgrade (installation) and ends when you touch
a new feature. Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.

Sybase has so great ideas, but the implimentation IS horrible (NGL was a
desaster from the beginning until the end, PB7 is a crisis, PowerDesigner 7.02
is (it seems to be) a beta version).

The only product which is really cool and working is Jaguar.


Joe Coady Posted on 2000-02-26 14:30:45.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:30:45 -0600
From: Joe Coady <jcoady@langui.com>
Organization: LANGUI Systems Inc
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Article PK: 159109

Just a short observation from a person who has lived through the programming
environment for 30 years. When I started punching on cards and setting programs
through a batch process I never thought we would be where we are today. We has
quality control problems back in the 70's with new releases and we were dealing
with very simple structures -- JOVIAL programs running on core memory. We have
made our working environment very complex in the last 30 years. Different
browsers, different components, different operating systems, different databases,
and different networks.
I from day one in the computer industry disliked companies that made closed
system: only worked with their O/S, their database or their client software. As a
manager, I ensured our group never selected these tools. One of the main reasons I
went to Sybase / Powersoft tools (8 years ago) was their deliberate attempt to
create open tools: ones that connect to all of the different environment because in
a typical IS working environment we had to work with ORACLE, SYBASE, ACCESS, DBF,
NOVELL, NT, etc.
Unfortunately, I get very frustrated as well with the dynamic nature of the new
suite that Sybase is using. On a recent prototype I developed over a six month
period I ugraded three times using the EAS suite and had to recheck everything
every time and adapt. But I think that is the nature of this beast called N TIER
COMPUTING. We are at the bleeding edge and be prepared to get cut. But the
rewards are exciting once you get it working.
The great news is this newsgroup. I have had some great tips come from this
group. The sybase group are there to help and fellow developers are keen to help
with suggestions and great tips.
In conclusion: to SYBASE people keep the OPEN architecture going and keep working
on quality control. And to fellow newsgroup people lets keep sharing our
frustrations and learn as we bleed along the way.

That's the way I see it! (TTWISI)

Joe

A consultant wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I just wanna know if I am the only frustrated guy here.
> Here is a small list what really disturbs me:
>
> a) PB 7
> *) Unstable (I see it GPFing on the left and on the right and in front of me)
> *) IDE is very, very slow now
> *) It's not userfriendly (for ex. Debugger only with mouse??)
> (ENTERPRISE product??????)
> b) PowerSite
> *) Unstable (I see it GPFing on the left and on the right and in front of me)
> *) No bug fixes for a long time, M$ oriented, useless.
> *) HTMLDW DTC is just for eMusic seminars, but not for production (everything
> hardcoded, everything is done with the ObjMod,.....)
> c) PowerDynamo
> *) No bug fixes for a long time.
> d) Support
> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working example.....)
> e) Sybase general
> *) Information 'hiding' (how many of you know about the Catchup ebf, how many
> have PB build 8017, who knows what is fixed in an ebf)
> *) Too long time until we get a bugfix
> HTML DW bugs are there since 2 years
> **) German date support (yes, I know techdoc available, but...)
> **) Background color of some DWs (Freeform)
> **) Checkboxes
>
> **) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
> *) New features NEVER work
> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
> **) PB7 is a crises (autoscript, slow)
> *) Things they have worked are not working in a new Major release
> **) I have to close PB when I build a project and want to change the app
> **) Always Date problems
> **) Installation is horrible (3.5 upgrade of Jaguar, try to install a
> Designer7 update on a Designer 6.1.1, Anywhere in last releases on German
> platforms,......)
> *) EBFs and Patches very very late (PB7 is one year old and look at it)
> By the way we have a CT (30 PB-Enterpr. licenses, 5 EAStudios upd. subs.
> since 4 years and he is waiting for EAStudio 3.5 (HAHA, maybe he gets PB8 in
> 2010))
>
> Yes, I know there is a workaround for this or that, but my projects lifes from
> workarounds! That begins with an upgrade (installation) and ends when you touch
> a new feature. Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.
>
> Sybase has so great ideas, but the implimentation IS horrible (NGL was a
> desaster from the beginning until the end, PB7 is a crisis, PowerDesigner 7.02
> is (it seems to be) a beta version).
>
> The only product which is really cool and working is Jaguar.


Lance Andersen Posted on 2000-02-25 13:02:46.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:02:46 -0500
From: Lance Andersen <lancea@sybase.com>
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A consultant wrote:
>
> c) PowerDynamo
> *) No bug fixes for a long time.

This is not true, we are just about to release our latest 301 ebf
for PD within the next couple of weeks. We are also working on a
35 EBF for PD but I do not have a release timeframe yet. This
will include a forward port of the 301 fixes.

> d) Support
> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working example.....)

Having a test case which demonstrates YOUR problem is always the
best thing. I cannot tell you the number of times over my career
where the testcase put together by TS was not exactly the SAME
problem (though it was a problem). To help expedite your issue
you should always be prepared to provide a repro.

Remember TS is your partner in making you successful. However, sucess
can only be guaranteed if everyone is working as a team.

> **) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
Bugs are fixed as quickly as we can. Escalated issues get higher
attention then lower priority issues without workarounds. If you
have a specific list of CRs associated to cases, please email me the
case number and the associated CR number and the business impact. I
will then forward to the appropriate mgmt team. My focus in PSE is for
Jaguar, jConnect, PowerDynamo, IQ and ASE. For products outside of
my area, I will forward to the appropriate PSE mgmt as well as the
TS mgmt in europe.

> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???

Feature requests are evaluated by marketing and a subset are targeted
for specific releases. Not all feature requests are implemented.
> *) New features NEVER work
> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
Are you talking about the redirect issue in 3.5 when running PD
withing Jaguar? This is a known issue and a fix will be available
shortly. This is CR 211448. Workaround is to use a META tag.

The session CR for 3.5 is 212892

both of these issues are on our hot list and fixes will be
coming soon (no ETA yet)
Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.

I am not sure what you mean by not working. If you have a bug that
cannot be worked around and you are on maintenance, you should work
through the TS mgmt to escalate your issue. As much as we would like
to fix every bug that comes in on the same day that is was reported, we
cannot. There are always tradeoffs.

We want you to be successful using your products and we are trying to
offer the best of the breed. Bugs unfortunately are to be expected and
will be rectified as quickly as we can. For critical bugs which
impact your business, you need to work with TS mgmt to make sure the
proper priority is set.

regards,
Lance
--
===============================================================================
Lance J. Andersen Email: lancea@sybase.com
Sybase Product Support Engineering Phone:(781) 564-6336
77 South Bedford Street Fax: (781) 564-7001
Burlington, MA 01803

The Dark Knight Returns!!! Let's Go Penguins!!!
===============================================================================


A consultant Posted on 2000-02-25 13:47:39.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
From: "A consultant" <bina@chello.at>
Organization: 195.75.3.66
X-Newsreader: AspNNTP 1.41 (Advent 2000, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Open letter to ?Sybase?
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Article PK: 159169

Hi Lance

>A consultant wrote:
>>
>> c) PowerDynamo
>> *) No bug fixes for a long time.
>
>This is not true, we are just about to release our latest 301 ebf
>for PD within the next couple of weeks. We are also working on a
>35 EBF for PD but I do not have a release timeframe yet. This
>will include a forward port of the 301 fixes.

Well this says a lot about the status for ebfs for Dynamo.
But there I have a new question:
Sybase had to test the session object when they implemented, why are they not
testing it again for the Jaguar integration. Sybase should have all the test
protocols (Sybase is ISO certified, or??).

And this is what I hear always:

We do not have a timeframe, but Sybase very often releases something which is 2,
or 3 months old (catchup ebf is from December last year, but released last
week). So there is very often a solution (a bugfix), but we get it very, very
late.

>
>> d) Support
>> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
>> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working
example.....)
>
>Having a test case which demonstrates YOUR problem is always the
>best thing. I cannot tell you the number of times over my career
>where the testcase put together by TS was not exactly the SAME
>problem (though it was a problem). To help expedite your issue
>you should always be prepared to provide a repro.
>
>Remember TS is your partner in making you successful. However, sucess
>can only be guaranteed if everyone is working as a team.

Than we are totally lost in Europe. Tools support does not work.
Just call Maarsen and tell them you have a Jaguar problem......

And than when they can reproduce it you can discuss if it is a bug or not (had
that with GetChanges/SetChanges -> Was NOT accepted as a bug -> In the Course
slides for EAServer was described how it should work, but the PSE had his own
opinion on that?????? -> We are lucky that the American guys seem to know more).


>> **) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
>Bugs are fixed as quickly as we can. Escalated issues get higher
>attention then lower priority issues without workarounds. If you
>have a specific list of CRs associated to cases, please email me the
>case number and the associated CR number and the business impact. I
>will then forward to the appropriate mgmt team. My focus in PSE is for
>Jaguar, jConnect, PowerDynamo, IQ and ASE. For products outside of
>my area, I will forward to the appropriate PSE mgmt as well as the
>TS mgmt in europe.

Well this sounds great, do you wanna begin in Maarsen. They could need you
there.


>
>> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
>
>Feature requests are evaluated by marketing and a subset are targeted
>for specific releases. Not all feature requests are implemented.

Oh come on, half of the Powerbuilder guys have a broken finger from debugging
with the mouse (no shortcut available), and enh. requ. are enough for this.

And why always look at the priority and not try to fix simple things (script
painter -> search dialog -> NO DEFAULT BUTTON, come on this can not be so hard
that Sybase needs 30 CRs for that?????)


>> *) New features NEVER work
>> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
>Are you talking about the redirect issue in 3.5 when running PD
>withing Jaguar? This is a known issue and a fix will be available
>shortly. This is CR 211448. Workaround is to use a META tag.

I know who opened this case and requested the fix, but you can not always go to
support and say that you loose a CT when you will not get the fix. And this ARE
essential things when you want to use Dynamo hosting in Jaguar and you CAN NOT
use the session (we use the redirect workaround (as I mentioned my stuff is full
of workarounds))

>
>The session CR for 3.5 is 212892
>
>both of these issues are on our hot list and fixes will be
>coming soon (no ETA yet)

Your ETA should be at the end of March ;-))


> Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
>> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.
>
>I am not sure what you mean by not working. If you have a bug that
>cannot be worked around and you are on maintenance, you should work
>through the TS mgmt to escalate your issue. As much as we would like
>to fix every bug that comes in on the same day that is was reported, we
>cannot. There are always tradeoffs.

YES, this is what I mean. They look for a workaround, but the stuff is never
fixed!!!! And no one wants that it is fixed on the same day. 1 or 2 months would
be great, and not a year, or never.


Dave Wolf [Sybase] Posted on 2000-02-25 20:55:12.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
From: "Dave Wolf [Sybase]" <dwolf@sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Open letter to ?Sybase?
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:55:12 -0500
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I will pass your comments onto management.

Dave Wolf
Internet Applications Division

"A consultant" <bina@chello.at> wrote in message
news:1iJrhb5f$GA.274@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Lance
>
> >A consultant wrote:
> >>
> >> c) PowerDynamo
> >> *) No bug fixes for a long time.
> >
> >This is not true, we are just about to release our latest 301 ebf
> >for PD within the next couple of weeks. We are also working on a
> >35 EBF for PD but I do not have a release timeframe yet. This
> >will include a forward port of the 301 fixes.
>
> Well this says a lot about the status for ebfs for Dynamo.
> But there I have a new question:
> Sybase had to test the session object when they implemented, why are they
not
> testing it again for the Jaguar integration. Sybase should have all the
test
> protocols (Sybase is ISO certified, or??).
>
> And this is what I hear always:
>
> We do not have a timeframe, but Sybase very often releases something which
is 2,
> or 3 months old (catchup ebf is from December last year, but released last
> week). So there is very often a solution (a bugfix), but we get it very,
very
> late.
>
> >
> >> d) Support
> >> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
> >> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working
> example.....)
> >
> >Having a test case which demonstrates YOUR problem is always the
> >best thing. I cannot tell you the number of times over my career
> >where the testcase put together by TS was not exactly the SAME
> >problem (though it was a problem). To help expedite your issue
> >you should always be prepared to provide a repro.
> >
> >Remember TS is your partner in making you successful. However, sucess
> >can only be guaranteed if everyone is working as a team.
>
> Than we are totally lost in Europe. Tools support does not work.
> Just call Maarsen and tell them you have a Jaguar problem......
>
> And than when they can reproduce it you can discuss if it is a bug or not
(had
> that with GetChanges/SetChanges -> Was NOT accepted as a bug -> In the
Course
> slides for EAServer was described how it should work, but the PSE had his
own
> opinion on that?????? -> We are lucky that the American guys seem to know
more).
>
>
> >> **) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
> >Bugs are fixed as quickly as we can. Escalated issues get higher
> >attention then lower priority issues without workarounds. If you
> >have a specific list of CRs associated to cases, please email me the
> >case number and the associated CR number and the business impact. I
> >will then forward to the appropriate mgmt team. My focus in PSE is for
> >Jaguar, jConnect, PowerDynamo, IQ and ASE. For products outside of
> >my area, I will forward to the appropriate PSE mgmt as well as the
> >TS mgmt in europe.
>
> Well this sounds great, do you wanna begin in Maarsen. They could need you
> there.
>
>
> >
> >> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
> >
> >Feature requests are evaluated by marketing and a subset are targeted
> >for specific releases. Not all feature requests are implemented.
>
> Oh come on, half of the Powerbuilder guys have a broken finger from
debugging
> with the mouse (no shortcut available), and enh. requ. are enough for
this.
>
> And why always look at the priority and not try to fix simple things
(script
> painter -> search dialog -> NO DEFAULT BUTTON, come on this can not be so
hard
> that Sybase needs 30 CRs for that?????)
>
>
> >> *) New features NEVER work
> >> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
> >Are you talking about the redirect issue in 3.5 when running PD
> >withing Jaguar? This is a known issue and a fix will be available
> >shortly. This is CR 211448. Workaround is to use a META tag.
>
> I know who opened this case and requested the fix, but you can not always
go to
> support and say that you loose a CT when you will not get the fix. And
this ARE
> essential things when you want to use Dynamo hosting in Jaguar and you CAN
NOT
> use the session (we use the redirect workaround (as I mentioned my stuff
is full
> of workarounds))
>
> >
> >The session CR for 3.5 is 212892
> >
> >both of these issues are on our hot list and fixes will be
> >coming soon (no ETA yet)
>
> Your ETA should be at the end of March ;-))
>
>
> > Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
> >> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.
> >
> >I am not sure what you mean by not working. If you have a bug that
> >cannot be worked around and you are on maintenance, you should work
> >through the TS mgmt to escalate your issue. As much as we would like
> >to fix every bug that comes in on the same day that is was reported, we
> >cannot. There are always tradeoffs.
>
> YES, this is what I mean. They look for a workaround, but the stuff is
never
> fixed!!!! And no one wants that it is fixed on the same day. 1 or 2 months
would
> be great, and not a year, or never.


Ken Forbes Posted on 2000-02-25 18:08:56.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
From: "Ken Forbes" <ken.forbes_removethis_@wcom.com>
Subject: Re: Open letter to ?Sybase?
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:08:56 -0600
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Article PK: 159143

The lack of a keyboard shortcut in the debugger can be easily addressed.
You can create a keyboard shortcut for any menu item in PowerBuilder. Check
under Window -> Keyboard Shortcuts.

A consultant <bina@chello.at> wrote in message
news:1iJrhb5f$GA.274@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Lance
>
> >A consultant wrote:
> >>
> >> c) PowerDynamo
> >> *) No bug fixes for a long time.
> >
> >This is not true, we are just about to release our latest 301 ebf
> >for PD within the next couple of weeks. We are also working on a
> >35 EBF for PD but I do not have a release timeframe yet. This
> >will include a forward port of the 301 fixes.
>
> Well this says a lot about the status for ebfs for Dynamo.
> But there I have a new question:
> Sybase had to test the session object when they implemented, why are they
not
> testing it again for the Jaguar integration. Sybase should have all the
test
> protocols (Sybase is ISO certified, or??).
>
> And this is what I hear always:
>
> We do not have a timeframe, but Sybase very often releases something which
is 2,
> or 3 months old (catchup ebf is from December last year, but released last
> week). So there is very often a solution (a bugfix), but we get it very,
very
> late.
>
> >
> >> d) Support
> >> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
> >> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working
> example.....)
> >
> >Having a test case which demonstrates YOUR problem is always the
> >best thing. I cannot tell you the number of times over my career
> >where the testcase put together by TS was not exactly the SAME
> >problem (though it was a problem). To help expedite your issue
> >you should always be prepared to provide a repro.
> >
> >Remember TS is your partner in making you successful. However, sucess
> >can only be guaranteed if everyone is working as a team.
>
> Than we are totally lost in Europe. Tools support does not work.
> Just call Maarsen and tell them you have a Jaguar problem......
>
> And than when they can reproduce it you can discuss if it is a bug or not
(had
> that with GetChanges/SetChanges -> Was NOT accepted as a bug -> In the
Course
> slides for EAServer was described how it should work, but the PSE had his
own
> opinion on that?????? -> We are lucky that the American guys seem to know
more).
>
>
> >> **) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
> >Bugs are fixed as quickly as we can. Escalated issues get higher
> >attention then lower priority issues without workarounds. If you
> >have a specific list of CRs associated to cases, please email me the
> >case number and the associated CR number and the business impact. I
> >will then forward to the appropriate mgmt team. My focus in PSE is for
> >Jaguar, jConnect, PowerDynamo, IQ and ASE. For products outside of
> >my area, I will forward to the appropriate PSE mgmt as well as the
> >TS mgmt in europe.
>
> Well this sounds great, do you wanna begin in Maarsen. They could need you
> there.
>
>
> >
> >> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
> >
> >Feature requests are evaluated by marketing and a subset are targeted
> >for specific releases. Not all feature requests are implemented.
>
> Oh come on, half of the Powerbuilder guys have a broken finger from
debugging
> with the mouse (no shortcut available), and enh. requ. are enough for
this.
>
> And why always look at the priority and not try to fix simple things
(script
> painter -> search dialog -> NO DEFAULT BUTTON, come on this can not be so
hard
> that Sybase needs 30 CRs for that?????)
>
>
> >> *) New features NEVER work
> >> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
> >Are you talking about the redirect issue in 3.5 when running PD
> >withing Jaguar? This is a known issue and a fix will be available
> >shortly. This is CR 211448. Workaround is to use a META tag.
>
> I know who opened this case and requested the fix, but you can not always
go to
> support and say that you loose a CT when you will not get the fix. And
this ARE
> essential things when you want to use Dynamo hosting in Jaguar and you CAN
NOT
> use the session (we use the redirect workaround (as I mentioned my stuff
is full
> of workarounds))
>
> >
> >The session CR for 3.5 is 212892
> >
> >both of these issues are on our hot list and fixes will be
> >coming soon (no ETA yet)
>
> Your ETA should be at the end of March ;-))
>
>
> > Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
> >> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.
> >
> >I am not sure what you mean by not working. If you have a bug that
> >cannot be worked around and you are on maintenance, you should work
> >through the TS mgmt to escalate your issue. As much as we would like
> >to fix every bug that comes in on the same day that is was reported, we
> >cannot. There are always tradeoffs.
>
> YES, this is what I mean. They look for a workaround, but the stuff is
never
> fixed!!!! And no one wants that it is fixed on the same day. 1 or 2 months
would
> be great, and not a year, or never.


Mark Maslow Posted on 2000-02-25 17:54:54.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
From: "Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org>
Subject: Re: Open letter to ?Sybase?
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:54:54 -0800
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I just want to second how frustrated I was regarding the following issue
cited by "A consultant":

And than when they can reproduce it you can discuss if it is a bug or not
(had
that with GetChanges/SetChanges -> Was NOT accepted as a bug -> In the
Course
slides for EAServer was described how it should work, but the PSE had his
own
opinion on that?????? -> We are lucky that the American guys seem to know
more).

This issue was really a disaster. I was trying to develop an app with a
Java client and PB components. get/setChanges was not working as
documented. The TS person *insisted* that I provide him with a PB client,
even though my app used a Java client, which Sybase is *supposed* to be
supporting. Then another Sybase employee insisted that get/setChanges was
*supposed* to work the way it was working - which completely conflicted with
the documentation.

In the end, the problem was resolved - but the whole series of events was
very difficult and frustrating. It was quite clear that in many cases,
communications within Sybase were poor or non-existent.

Sybase has some really great ideas for software, and much of it is beginning
to work fairly well. We have greatly appreciated the efforts of many
helpful folks working for Sybase. I do think things are getting better.
The biggest challenge seems to be to get everyone in the company on the same
page. I sincerely hope that Sybase managers will continue to work very hard
to improve their internal communications. It will make all of our lives
much easier.

Mark Maslow


Tim Nesham Posted on 2000-02-25 17:03:35.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
From: "Tim Nesham" <tim.nesham@born.com>
Subject: Re: Open letter to ?Sybase?
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:03:35 -0600
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Speaking as a non-Sybase employee:
The tools have problems, yes. PowerSite is a memory pig. I like PB7 over
the previous versions. Am I using these tools in a serious large scale
development situation? Absolutely! And we are moving forward. Since we are
all new at this sort of development we definitely struggle. But the tools
don't PREVENT us from getting the work done.
The most common reason for gpfs I've seen is a "dirty" machine. IMHO.
I am in no position to blame the tools as if I can't do it someone else
will. So I am committed to make this work. The DHTML has saved our butts
in one project but I NEED more CSS control.
I can't get the Java Datawindow to work for anything. Sure it works in
PowerJ but the CLASSPATH is a mess. All sorts of strange errors. So that
gets put aside.
I am told to open a support case but I'm almost guaranteed not to get the
right person the first time. Then I elevate the case to get someone else
but the first person takes it personally or is told to "do their best" and
they continue to try to solve the problem even though I am training them!

So far I've solved most of my problems and Sybase has done their best to
help. Now if they could stop the brain drain but there is the dilemma.
Sybase is showing some signs of renewed life. I would like to see them make
it so I will work around the imperfections as much as possible.

"A consultant" <bina@chello.at> wrote in message
news:1iJrhb5f$GA.274@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Lance
>
> >A consultant wrote:
> >>
> >> c) PowerDynamo
> >> *) No bug fixes for a long time.
> >
> >This is not true, we are just about to release our latest 301 ebf
> >for PD within the next couple of weeks. We are also working on a
> >35 EBF for PD but I do not have a release timeframe yet. This
> >will include a forward port of the 301 fixes.
>
> Well this says a lot about the status for ebfs for Dynamo.
> But there I have a new question:
> Sybase had to test the session object when they implemented, why are they
not
> testing it again for the Jaguar integration. Sybase should have all the
test
> protocols (Sybase is ISO certified, or??).
>
> And this is what I hear always:
>
> We do not have a timeframe, but Sybase very often releases something which
is 2,
> or 3 months old (catchup ebf is from December last year, but released last
> week). So there is very often a solution (a bugfix), but we get it very,
very
> late.
>
> >
> >> d) Support
> >> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
> >> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working
> example.....)
> >
> >Having a test case which demonstrates YOUR problem is always the
> >best thing. I cannot tell you the number of times over my career
> >where the testcase put together by TS was not exactly the SAME
> >problem (though it was a problem). To help expedite your issue
> >you should always be prepared to provide a repro.
> >
> >Remember TS is your partner in making you successful. However, sucess
> >can only be guaranteed if everyone is working as a team.
>
> Than we are totally lost in Europe. Tools support does not work.
> Just call Maarsen and tell them you have a Jaguar problem......
>
> And than when they can reproduce it you can discuss if it is a bug or not
(had
> that with GetChanges/SetChanges -> Was NOT accepted as a bug -> In the
Course
> slides for EAServer was described how it should work, but the PSE had his
own
> opinion on that?????? -> We are lucky that the American guys seem to know
more).
>
>
> >> **) CRs are not implemented (I can send you a list of CRs!!!)
> >Bugs are fixed as quickly as we can. Escalated issues get higher
> >attention then lower priority issues without workarounds. If you
> >have a specific list of CRs associated to cases, please email me the
> >case number and the associated CR number and the business impact. I
> >will then forward to the appropriate mgmt team. My focus in PSE is for
> >Jaguar, jConnect, PowerDynamo, IQ and ASE. For products outside of
> >my area, I will forward to the appropriate PSE mgmt as well as the
> >TS mgmt in europe.
>
> Well this sounds great, do you wanna begin in Maarsen. They could need you
> there.
>
>
> >
> >> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
> >
> >Feature requests are evaluated by marketing and a subset are targeted
> >for specific releases. Not all feature requests are implemented.
>
> Oh come on, half of the Powerbuilder guys have a broken finger from
debugging
> with the mouse (no shortcut available), and enh. requ. are enough for
this.
>
> And why always look at the priority and not try to fix simple things
(script
> painter -> search dialog -> NO DEFAULT BUTTON, come on this can not be so
hard
> that Sybase needs 30 CRs for that?????)
>
>
> >> *) New features NEVER work
> >> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
> >Are you talking about the redirect issue in 3.5 when running PD
> >withing Jaguar? This is a known issue and a fix will be available
> >shortly. This is CR 211448. Workaround is to use a META tag.
>
> I know who opened this case and requested the fix, but you can not always
go to
> support and say that you loose a CT when you will not get the fix. And
this ARE
> essential things when you want to use Dynamo hosting in Jaguar and you CAN
NOT
> use the session (we use the redirect workaround (as I mentioned my stuff
is full
> of workarounds))
>
> >
> >The session CR for 3.5 is 212892
> >
> >both of these issues are on our hot list and fixes will be
> >coming soon (no ETA yet)
>
> Your ETA should be at the end of March ;-))
>
>
> > Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
> >> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.
> >
> >I am not sure what you mean by not working. If you have a bug that
> >cannot be worked around and you are on maintenance, you should work
> >through the TS mgmt to escalate your issue. As much as we would like
> >to fix every bug that comes in on the same day that is was reported, we
> >cannot. There are always tradeoffs.
>
> YES, this is what I mean. They look for a workaround, but the stuff is
never
> fixed!!!! And no one wants that it is fixed on the same day. 1 or 2 months
would
> be great, and not a year, or never.


Lance Andersen Posted on 2000-02-25 15:20:02.0Z
Newsgroups: sybase.public.easerver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:20:02 -0500
From: Lance Andersen <lancea@sybase.com>
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A consultant wrote:

> But there I have a new question:
> Sybase had to test the session object when they implemented, why are they not
> testing it again for the Jaguar integration. Sybase should have all the test
> protocols (Sybase is ISO certified, or??).

As much as any company (Sybase, Oracle, BEA, Sun,...etc) try to test
in every possible combination, it is not always possible and things
do get missed (which I know is not a comfort to you). If all QA
was successful 100%, then there would not be any bugs in the software
industry. Are we perfect? No. Are we setting the bar higher for
ourselves ? yes.

I meet weekly with the Jaguar/Power Dynamo sustaining manager to review
escalated CRs and to help prioritze issues. We have come a long way
in a very short time. We are about to release our 2nd 301 ebf
this year (2000) as well as for jag 3.5.

We are working hard to get the PD ebf out the door for 301 and 35. As
well.

We have a very hard working sustaining team who is focused on helping us
achieve the highest quality product that we can possibly deliver. My
group has the same goals and desires.

Catching every single problem and testing every single scenario against
every possible combination of Jaguar/PD using every webserver on every
platform (not to mention version) is very time consuming.

Do I think we should have caught at least the session CR prior to GA?
Yes, but I cannot change that now, just work on making it better going
forward.

W.R.T your question regarding ISO. Yes, we are certified. What ISO
provides is you have a documented process that you follow and adhere to.
This allows for consistancy and predictability. It does not however
guarantee your products to be 100% bug free.
>
> And this is what I hear always:
>
> We do not have a timeframe, but Sybase very often releases something which is 2,
> or 3 months old (catchup ebf is from December last year, but released last
> week).

I am not sure I understand this, but we released a 301 jag ebf in
january as well as a 35. The next ebfs are coming shortly (march)

So there is very often a solution (a bugfix), but we get it very, very
> late.

Ebfs are downloadable (our should be ) using ESD and softwareexpress.
My understanding is the latest Jag ebfs are there for solaris and nt.
>
> >
> >> d) Support
> >> *) Does not exist in Europe (Maarsen) for Jaguar.
> >> *) Do not really want to reproduce it (please send me a working
> example.....)
> >
> >Having a test case which demonstrates YOUR problem is always the
> >best thing. I cannot tell you the number of times over my career
> >where the testcase put together by TS was not exactly the SAME
> >problem (though it was a problem). To help expedite your issue
> >you should always be prepared to provide a repro.
> >
> >Remember TS is your partner in making you successful. However, sucess
> >can only be guaranteed if everyone is working as a team.
>
> Than we are totally lost in Europe. Tools support does not work.

I am sorry you feel that way. I will pass your concerns onto the
Director of support in Europe.
> Just call Maarsen and tell them you have a Jaguar problem......
>
> And than when they can reproduce it you can discuss if it is a bug or not (had
> that with GetChanges/SetChanges -> Was NOT accepted as a bug -> In the Course
> slides for EAServer was described how it should work, but the PSE had his own
> opinion on that?????? -> We are lucky that the American guys seem to know more).
e.
>
> >
> >> **) What is Sybase doing with enh. requ. (Debugger)???
> >
> >Feature requests are evaluated by marketing and a subset are targeted
> >for specific releases. Not all feature requests are implemented.
>
> Oh come on, half of the Powerbuilder guys have a broken finger from debugging
> with the mouse (no shortcut available), and enh. requ. are enough for this.
>
> And why always look at the priority and not try to fix simple things (script
> painter -> search dialog -> NO DEFAULT BUTTON, come on this can not be so hard
> that Sybase needs 30 CRs for that?????)

Again, I cannot comment on feature requests any more than I have. We
have a finite number of engineers which are responsible for development.
Their direction comes from product marketing based on the needs of
the marketplace and the customer base. If you have specific features
that are really burning in your heart, please work with ISUG as they
have good influence with the marketing folks.

Yes, simple bugs would be nice to knock off quickly but sometimes what
appears to be simple is not-so-straightforward. And the same folks that
might fix this are usually involved with the high priority issues.

Now what we do try and do is when we are working in a specific area of
the code, we try and knock of any other issues if they are not major
timesinks.

>
> >> *) New features NEVER work
> >> **) Dynamo integration in Jaguar (redirect, session,.....)
> >Are you talking about the redirect issue in 3.5 when running PD
> >withing Jaguar? This is a known issue and a fix will be available
> >shortly. This is CR 211448. Workaround is to use a META tag.
>
> I know who opened this case and requested the fix, but you can not always go to
> support and say that you loose a CT when you will not get the fix. And this ARE
> essential things when you want to use Dynamo hosting in Jaguar and you CAN NOT
> use the session (we use the redirect workaround (as I mentioned my stuff is full
> of workarounds))
>
> >
> >The session CR for 3.5 is 212892
> >
> >both of these issues are on our hot list and fixes will be
> >coming soon (no ETA yet)
>
> Your ETA should be at the end of March ;-))

maybe it is, I just cannot comment at this time :-)
>
> > Yes, I know I can contact tech. supp., but hey I did that for 2
> >> years now and IT IS NOT WORKING.
> >
> >I am not sure what you mean by not working. If you have a bug that
> >cannot be worked around and you are on maintenance, you should work
> >through the TS mgmt to escalate your issue. As much as we would like
> >to fix every bug that comes in on the same day that is was reported, we
> >cannot. There are always tradeoffs.
>
> YES, this is what I mean. They look for a workaround, but the stuff is never
> fixed!!!!

The 1st role of TS once we identify an issue as a bug is to try and
provide relief via a workaround. Some workarounds are better than
others and are easier to implement. Sometimes low priority CRs do not
get fixed. This is not new to Sybase, but is true throughout the
industry.

Our Jaguar sustaining team has done a great job in knocking down the
backlog of outstanding CRs. Will we close everyone this year? Probably
not but we will sure try.

Regards,
Lance
--
===============================================================================
Lance J. Andersen Email: lancea@sybase.com
Sybase Product Support Engineering Phone:(781) 564-6336
77 South Bedford Street Fax: (781) 564-7001
Burlington, MA 01803

The Dark Knight Returns!!! Let's Go Penguins!!!
===============================================================================