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Towards a more extensible Sybase ASE

11 posts in Product Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2002-04-15 11:15:18.0Z
Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-04-12 13:03:14.0Z
Message-ID: <3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 23:03:14 +1000
From: Anthony Mandic <sp_am_block@start.com.au>
Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Article PK: 93716

Microsoft have realised the limitation of their Exchange Server and
have decided to build it on top of SQL Server instead. Even Lotus
have realised the limits of Bloated Goats and plan to build it on
top of DB2.

The trend is obvious. MS are obviously doing it due to the poor quality
of their existing design and Bloated Goats will never cut it whichever
database they decide to put under it (if anything, they may finally
have transactions but who really cares).

Meanwhile there is no really functional native LDAP server.

I think its time Sybase considered developing a telnet interpreter
and using Sybase ASE as a backend database for SMTP, LDAP, DNS and
HTML services etc. Given the performance of ASE it would allow for
high performance services in these areas which are sadly lacking at
the moment.

Whilst it could be argued that anyone could develop an open server
application to do this, the fact is that no one is. MS will never
port to Unix platforms. Lotus can't do it successfully. Sybase should
be able to dominate the field by being the first to market.

-am © 2002


Matt Rogish Posted on 2002-04-12 19:30:45.0Z
From: "Matt Rogish" <matt@fanhome.com>
References: <3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au>
Subject: Re: Towards a more extensible Sybase ASE
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:30:45 -0400
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I know Orable has a LDAP server of some sort.. We're looking at using it
instead of Netscrape's offering. I don't know if it interfaces with a table
(e.g. store your LDAP records in a table instead of a LDAP directory
structure) but we really want it to (we use LDAP as authentication for the
enterprise as a single place for apps to go so we don't have password update
issues. However we have many legacy applications which use Orable tables
and xlating them is difficult).

ASE having this capability would be GREAT because I'm sure there are some
users in the same boat as well. It reeks a lot of Oracle xi implementation
but I'm sure Sybase can do it better (faster, cheaper, keep it modular!!
:D).

--
Matt

"Anthony Mandic" <sp_am_block@start.com.au> wrote in message
news:3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au...
> Meanwhile there is no really functional native LDAP server.
>
> I think its time Sybase considered developing a telnet interpreter
> and using Sybase ASE as a backend database for SMTP, LDAP, DNS and
> HTML services etc. Given the performance of ASE it would allow for
> high performance services in these areas which are sadly lacking at
> the moment.
>
> Whilst it could be argued that anyone could develop an open server
> application to do this, the fact is that no one is. MS will never
> port to Unix platforms. Lotus can't do it successfully. Sybase should
> be able to dominate the field by being the first to market.
>
> -am © 2002


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-04-12 23:32:21.0Z
Message-ID: <3CB76E85.5E169C09@start.com.au>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:32:21 +1000
From: Anthony Mandic <sp_am_block@start.com.au>
Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Matt Rogish wrote:
>
> I know Orable has a LDAP server of some sort.. We're looking at using it
> instead of Netscrape's offering.

I think I would take Nutscrape over Orable any day.

> I don't know if it interfaces with a table
> (e.g. store your LDAP records in a table instead of a LDAP directory
> structure) but we really want it to

That's what I would like to see. For a large site it makes sense
to have a database backend serving the data out faster. Then you
can do all the neat ASE things like replication etc.

> (we use LDAP as authentication for the
> enterprise as a single place for apps to go so we don't have password update
> issues. However we have many legacy applications which use Orable tables
> and xlating them is difficult).

That's always the case with Orable isn't it?

> ASE having this capability would be GREAT because I'm sure there are some
> users in the same boat as well. It reeks a lot of Oracle xi implementation
> but I'm sure Sybase can do it better (faster, cheaper, keep it modular!!

Of course they can. Faster, cheaper and more reliable.
(Remind me to tell you how Bloated Goats implemented their
replication some time.)

-am © 2002


Matt Rogish Posted on 2002-04-15 06:12:12.0Z
From: "Matt Rogish" <matt@fanhome.com>
References: <3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au> <J2KrLml4BHA.332@forums.sybase.com> <3CB76E85.5E169C09@start.com.au>
Subject: Re: Towards a more extensible Sybase ASE
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"Anthony Mandic" <sp_am_block@start.com.au> wrote in message
news:3CB76E85.5E169C09@start.com.au...
> I think I would take Nutscrape over Orable any day.

I would as well if we didn't have *major* problems with IPlanet. They all
link back to Cold Fusion (ugh!) but we 'need' CF for the time being until we
can move to Apache + PHP. Oracle isn't going anywhere so rather than
keeping IPlanet around...

> That's what I would like to see. For a large site it makes sense
> to have a database backend serving the data out faster. Then you
> can do all the neat ASE things like replication etc.

The arguement for LDAP is that LDAP could be thrown on many commodity linux
boxen and then put behind a Local Director vs. Oracle's limited scalability
(downwards to small boxen). I guess the interface you'd write to edit /
create / etc. the LDAP entries would have to take into account many boxen
and do a 'home grown' form of replication.

> That's always the case with Orable isn't it?

:)

> (Remind me to tell you how Bloated Goats implemented their
> replication some time.)
>
> -am © 2002

LOL. Care to send me an email on that? :)

Thanks,

--
Matt


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-04-15 11:15:18.0Z
Message-ID: <3CBAB646.13D1AD05@start.com.au>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:15:18 +1000
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Matt Rogish wrote:

> I would as well if we didn't have *major* problems with IPlanet. They all
> link back to Cold Fusion (ugh!) but we 'need' CF for the time being until we
> can move to Apache + PHP.

I prefer to call it ConFusion.

> Oracle isn't going anywhere so rather than keeping IPlanet around...

Orable never goes anywhere.

> > (Remind me to tell you how Bloated Goats implemented their
> > replication some time.)
>
> LOL. Care to send me an email on that? :)

Well, there's not much to tell. The way it does it is by sending
the entire notes file (nsf) to the next target at random times.
At a large site with a lot of Notes servers, this really affects
the WAN. More amusement at Notes' expense can be had at -
http://www.iarchitect.com/lotus.htm and this just bags the GUI.
I described some of the admin aspects in comp.databases on Usenet
some months back. An advanced search at http://groups.google.com
with that newsgroup, my name as the author and "Bloated Goats"
as the search pattern should turn it up.

-am © 2002


Carl Kayser Posted on 2002-04-12 19:21:52.0Z
From: "Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov>
References: <3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au>
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And all this time I thought that you were a techie. You must be a marketeer
in sheeps clothing! :-)


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-04-12 23:27:50.0Z
Message-ID: <3CB76D76.78AD50B6@start.com.au>
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Carl Kayser wrote:
>
> And all this time I thought that you were a techie. You must be a marketeer
> in sheeps clothing! :-)

Wanna see my fangs?

-am © 2002


Rob Verschoor Posted on 2002-04-12 16:03:36.0Z
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"Anthony Mandic" <sp_am_block@start.com.au> wrote in message
news:3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au...
> Microsoft have realised the limitation of their Exchange Server and
> have decided to build it on top of SQL Server instead. Even Lotus
> have realised the limits of Bloated Goats and plan to build it on
> top of DB2.
>
> The trend is obvious. MS are obviously doing it due to the poor
quality
> of their existing design and Bloated Goats will never cut it
whichever
> database they decide to put under it (if anything, they may finally
> have transactions but who really cares).
>
> Meanwhile there is no really functional native LDAP server.
>
> I think its time Sybase considered developing a telnet interpreter
> and using Sybase ASE as a backend database for SMTP, LDAP, DNS and
> HTML services etc. Given the performance of ASE it would allow for
> high performance services in these areas which are sadly lacking at
> the moment.
>
> Whilst it could be argued that anyone could develop an open server
> application to do this, the fact is that no one is. MS will never
> port to Unix platforms. Lotus can't do it successfully. Sybase
should
> be able to dominate the field by being the first to market.
>
> -am © 2002

An interesting and refreshing idea! It would be nice if Sybase were
doing this sort of thing. You'd have my vote...

HTH,

Rob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Verschoor

Certified Sybase Professional DBA for ASE 12.0/11.5/11.0

Author of "The Complete Sybase ASE Quick Reference Guide"
Online orders accepted at http://www.sypron.nl/qr

email mailto:rob@*do*not*spam*sypron.nl
WWW http://www.sypron.nl
snail Sypron B.V., P.O.Box 10695, 2501HR Den Haag, The Netherlands
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-04-12 23:25:04.0Z
Message-ID: <3CB76CD0.69BA2FD5@start.com.au>
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Rob Verschoor wrote:

> An interesting and refreshing idea! It would be nice if Sybase were
> doing this sort of thing. You'd have my vote...

The general idea is fairly straightforward and it seems that
others are looking at implementing it so Sybase may do it as
well to stay competitive. I imagine sybase would have the
edge over MS since Sybase have Open Server and MS don't.
Implementing a groupware application like Bloated Goats
should be easy and I would expect Sybase to do a far better
job of it than Lotus currently does.

I would imagine once a generic telnet interface is written
in Open Server, any of the services would be easy to implement.
Something like DNS and LDAP should be trivial and such an
offering would be a boon to large sites struggling with the
current mechanisms.

Of course, one could also write an admin interface to ASE
and the above add-ons via a telnet interface too. That would
probably be a superset of T-SQL in some fashion.

-am © 2002


Michael Peppler Posted on 2002-04-12 20:46:50.0Z
From: Michael Peppler <mpeppler@peppler.org>
Subject: Re: Towards a more extensible Sybase ASE
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:46:50 -0700
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On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:03:36 -0700, Rob Verschoor wrote:

> "Anthony Mandic" <sp_am_block@start.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3CB6DB12.52CE94F4@start.com.au...
>> Microsoft have realised the limitation of their Exchange Server and
>> have decided to build it on top of SQL Server instead. Even Lotus have
>> realised the limits of Bloated Goats and plan to build it on top of
>> DB2.
>>
>> The trend is obvious. MS are obviously doing it due to the poor
> quality
>> of their existing design and Bloated Goats will never cut it
> whichever
>> database they decide to put under it (if anything, they may finally
>> have transactions but who really cares).
>>
>> Meanwhile there is no really functional native LDAP server.
>>
>> I think its time Sybase considered developing a telnet interpreter and
>> using Sybase ASE as a backend database for SMTP, LDAP, DNS and HTML
>> services etc. Given the performance of ASE it would allow for high
>> performance services in these areas which are sadly lacking at the
>> moment.
>>
>> Whilst it could be argued that anyone could develop an open server
>> application to do this, the fact is that no one is. MS will never port
>> to Unix platforms. Lotus can't do it successfully. Sybase
> should
>> be able to dominate the field by being the first to market.
>>
>> -am © 2002
>
> An interesting and refreshing idea! It would be nice if Sybase were
> doing this sort of thing. You'd have my vote...

I'm actually working on an Open Server that could supply this
functionality (among other things). Actually what I'm working on is an
Open Server that can be used to create all sorts of interesting
interfaces...

Won't be freeware though, I'm afraid (though it won't be particularily
expensive either, but I've got to pay the bills :-)

Michael
--
Michael Peppler Data Migrations, Inc.
mpeppler@peppler.org *or* mpeppler@mbay.net
http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler
International Sybase User Group: http://www.isug.com


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-04-12 23:27:09.0Z
Message-ID: <3CB76D4D.51BC4B4B@start.com.au>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:27:09 +1000
From: Anthony Mandic <sp_am_block@start.com.au>
Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Michael Peppler wrote:

> I'm actually working on an Open Server that could supply this
> functionality (among other things). Actually what I'm working on is an
> Open Server that can be used to create all sorts of interesting
> interfaces...

Hey, great! I really think there's a market for it out there.

> Won't be freeware though, I'm afraid (though it won't be particularily
> expensive either, but I've got to pay the bills :-)

Well someone has to pay for the development and support.

-am © 2002