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What I really want

15 posts in Product Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2003-11-14 21:58:30.0Z
RP_Wannabe Posted on 2003-10-07 21:29:00.0Z
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From: RP_Wannabe
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Subject: What I really want
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I would like Sybase to stop logging to a transaction log,
and completely rewrite their transaction architecture to use
what I'll call redo, and undo segments.

But don't stop here. Also, change the nature of the system
tables so that they are views created on incredibly obscure
and undocumented system tables so that I don't have to write
one line of whatever these things called "stored procedures"
are.

Lastly, I think they ought to rename ASE 12.5.1 to "ASE 12i"
since I don't want to be bothered typing those annoying
period characters.

Oh wait, forget everything I've ever said. Please, just
please, make everything in ASE look just like Oracle so I
don't have to bother to learn anything new. I can't think
any other way...

Ryan


putnamr Posted on 2003-10-07 22:19:04.0Z
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From: putnamr@river.it.gvsu.edu
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Subject: Re: What I really want
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Wow, I have to say that you are wrong. I hate Oracle and
working with Oracle. Architecture change can be good, but
from the way you put your thoughts together I gather that
you are a Sybase employee. That really aggitates me. Also,
nothing I have mentioned mimics Oracle in the way they do
things. I am looking at it from what Sybase has to what the
might be able to do. Oracle may have the concept of Block
Used And Block Free, but they are used to prevent row
migration, chaining, and splitting for DML not DDL. I must
say sir, if these are your feelings and you do not think
that Sybase could improve there products from some of the
changes I have suggested you should be fired. I am not sure
if you are critizing me or the inability of Sybase to adapt
and make changes. I suspect both (think about it).

Thanks,
Ryan

> I would like Sybase to stop logging to a transaction log,
> and completely rewrite their transaction architecture to
> use what I'll call redo, and undo segments.
>
> But don't stop here. Also, change the nature of the
> system tables so that they are views created on incredibly
> obscure and undocumented system tables so that I don't
> have to write one line of whatever these things called
> "stored procedures" are.
>
> Lastly, I think they ought to rename ASE 12.5.1 to "ASE
> 12i" since I don't want to be bothered typing those
> annoying period characters.
>
> Oh wait, forget everything I've ever said. Please, just
> please, make everything in ASE look just like Oracle so I
> don't have to bother to learn anything new. I can't think
> any other way...
>
> Ryan


Olivier Posted on 2003-10-08 09:36:15.0Z
From: "Olivier" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr>
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Why do not you use your full name ?

I talked about Oracle8i in the general newsgroup, not because of "annoying
period characters" but to show how Sybase competitors were selling their
products.
Notice that the "i" doesn't mean nothing, but it sounds good.
It makes feel that your product is up to date.

If you make a search in this forum, you'll see that some people made system
views in order to replace all this sp_things.
And yes, all this sp_things sucks.

I am not a DBA, but i can guess what people here want.
They want that Oracle DBA's cry for all these nice stuff in ASE.

They want that MS SQL Server bytes the dust in big companies.

What i suggest:
There are 2 "Sybase Technical Evangelist" for powerbuilder.
How about an evangelist for ASE ?

On 7 Oct 2003 14:29:00 -0700,
in sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion

<RP_Wannabe> wrote:
>I would like Sybase to stop logging to a transaction log,
>and completely rewrite their transaction architecture to use
>what I'll call redo, and undo segments.
>
>But don't stop here. Also, change the nature of the system
>tables so that they are views created on incredibly obscure
>and undocumented system tables so that I don't have to write
>one line of whatever these things called "stored procedures"
>are.
>
>Lastly, I think they ought to rename ASE 12.5.1 to "ASE 12i"
>since I don't want to be bothered typing those annoying
>period characters.
>
>Oh wait, forget everything I've ever said. Please, just
>please, make everything in ASE look just like Oracle so I
>don't have to bother to learn anything new. I can't think
>any other way...
>
>Ryan

Olivier Citeau from Paris, France
Powerbuilder developper


BSB Posted on 2003-10-09 20:59:14.0Z
From: "BSB" <ss>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
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Subject: Re: What I really want
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I've worked with Sybase and Oracle - Oracle is much, much more stable. The
setup and architecture is more complex but with training and experience it
becomes second nature. Everyone "I" ever talked to that used both gave
Oracle a much better rating.

"Olivier" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:3f83da8f$1@forums-1-dub...
> Why do not you use your full name ?
>
> I talked about Oracle8i in the general newsgroup, not because of "annoying
> period characters" but to show how Sybase competitors were selling their
> products.
> Notice that the "i" doesn't mean nothing, but it sounds good.
> It makes feel that your product is up to date.
>
> If you make a search in this forum, you'll see that some people made
system
> views in order to replace all this sp_things.
> And yes, all this sp_things sucks.
>
> I am not a DBA, but i can guess what people here want.
> They want that Oracle DBA's cry for all these nice stuff in ASE.
>
> They want that MS SQL Server bytes the dust in big companies.
>
> What i suggest:
> There are 2 "Sybase Technical Evangelist" for powerbuilder.
> How about an evangelist for ASE ?
>
> On 7 Oct 2003 14:29:00 -0700,
> in sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
> <RP_Wannabe> wrote:
> >I would like Sybase to stop logging to a transaction log,
> >and completely rewrite their transaction architecture to use
> >what I'll call redo, and undo segments.
> >
> >But don't stop here. Also, change the nature of the system
> >tables so that they are views created on incredibly obscure
> >and undocumented system tables so that I don't have to write
> >one line of whatever these things called "stored procedures"
> >are.
> >
> >Lastly, I think they ought to rename ASE 12.5.1 to "ASE 12i"
> >since I don't want to be bothered typing those annoying
> >period characters.
> >
> >Oh wait, forget everything I've ever said. Please, just
> >please, make everything in ASE look just like Oracle so I
> >don't have to bother to learn anything new. I can't think
> >any other way...
> >
> >Ryan
>
> Olivier Citeau from Paris, France
> Powerbuilder developper


Olivier Citeau Posted on 2003-10-10 10:25:14.0Z
From: "Olivier Citeau" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr>
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I have only 2 year experience on ASE, but what do you mean when you say that ASE
is less stable ?

Where i work, ASE works in a 24*7 environment. And it has been working for 10
years at least.
When i say 24*7, i mean that there are always people doing OLTP processing, even
when our batchs runs at night

On 9 Oct 2003 13:59:14 -0700,
in sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion

BSB <ss> wrote:
>I've worked with Sybase and Oracle - Oracle is much, much more stable. The
>setup and architecture is more complex but with training and experience it
>becomes second nature. Everyone "I" ever talked to that used both gave
>Oracle a much better rating.
>
>
>"Olivier" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
>news:3f83da8f$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Why do not you use your full name ?
>>
>> I talked about Oracle8i in the general newsgroup, not because of "annoying
>> period characters" but to show how Sybase competitors were selling their
>> products.
>> Notice that the "i" doesn't mean nothing, but it sounds good.
>> It makes feel that your product is up to date.
>>
>> If you make a search in this forum, you'll see that some people made
>system
>> views in order to replace all this sp_things.
>> And yes, all this sp_things sucks.
>>
>> I am not a DBA, but i can guess what people here want.
>> They want that Oracle DBA's cry for all these nice stuff in ASE.
>>
>> They want that MS SQL Server bytes the dust in big companies.
>>
>> What i suggest:
>> There are 2 "Sybase Technical Evangelist" for powerbuilder.
>> How about an evangelist for ASE ?
>>

Olivier Citeau from Paris, France


BSB Posted on 2003-10-10 17:21:36.0Z
From: "BSB" <ss>
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I'm running ASE under Unix. Some of what I've seen over the past couple of
years - phantom locks, the need to manipulate sysem tables, patches with
serious bugs (one I saw was that a select distinct might not return correct
results), stack dumps, CIS performance, device corruption - I've never seen
these issues with Oracle, even while I was running under Windows NT.
Featrure wise - "Java in the database" really is Java in the database in
Oracle - you can write database procedures in PL/SQL (Oracle's procedural
language) or Java, or some in one, some in the other. No need to fire up the
JVM everytime you wanted to execute Java code. Database functions can be
written in PL/SQL - no need to learn Java. Procedures and functions could
also be stored in database packages. PL/SQL is rich with functionality
compared with TSQL. Arrays, PL/SQL tables, overloading, embedded functions.
Transaction logging is done in a much more effecient way using something
called rollback segments. And I'm not so sure Sybase is all that much
cheaper than Oracle anymore. In the hands of a skilled DBA, Oracle is a much
better performer.

"Olivier Citeau" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:3f86890a$1@forums-1-dub...
> I have only 2 year experience on ASE, but what do you mean when you say
that ASE
> is less stable ?
>
> Where i work, ASE works in a 24*7 environment. And it has been working for
10
> years at least.
> When i say 24*7, i mean that there are always people doing OLTP
processing, even
> when our batchs runs at night
>
> On 9 Oct 2003 13:59:14 -0700,
> in sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
> BSB <ss> wrote:
> >I've worked with Sybase and Oracle - Oracle is much, much more stable.
The
> >setup and architecture is more complex but with training and experience
it
> >becomes second nature. Everyone "I" ever talked to that used both gave
> >Oracle a much better rating.
> >
> >
> >"Olivier" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
> >news:3f83da8f$1@forums-1-dub...
> >> Why do not you use your full name ?
> >>
> >> I talked about Oracle8i in the general newsgroup, not because of
"annoying
> >> period characters" but to show how Sybase competitors were selling
their
> >> products.
> >> Notice that the "i" doesn't mean nothing, but it sounds good.
> >> It makes feel that your product is up to date.
> >>
> >> If you make a search in this forum, you'll see that some people made
> >system
> >> views in order to replace all this sp_things.
> >> And yes, all this sp_things sucks.
> >>
> >> I am not a DBA, but i can guess what people here want.
> >> They want that Oracle DBA's cry for all these nice stuff in ASE.
> >>
> >> They want that MS SQL Server bytes the dust in big companies.
> >>
> >> What i suggest:
> >> There are 2 "Sybase Technical Evangelist" for powerbuilder.
> >> How about an evangelist for ASE ?
> >>
>
> Olivier Citeau from Paris, France


"Karl Ritter" Posted on 2003-10-12 07:59:37.0Z
From: "Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
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Just a few comments. We have a lot of Sybase and it is rock solid when it
comes to stability. We are however, also conservative. If you use the latest
Sybase release, you may encounter problems. That is however also true with
Oracle. The general rule I would follow

1) Chose a version with ESD2 or later
2) Wait 1 months after Version x.x.x ESD2 is release and call Sybase for a
list of know bugs

We are currently using 12.0.0.2 ESD2 and 12.0.0.4 ESD2 and I can
personnaly attest that both of these are rock solid and will do well in your
24/7 prodution environment.

>>> the need to manipulate system tables
That is really no big deal. It happens really and in our case its to sync
login / user ids

>>> I've never seen these issues with Oracle
Well, our Oracle (used with Peoplesoft) database crashed about 4 months ago.
Database was corrupt and had to reload the tablespace. Database was offline
for 4+ hours during work hours. Oracle, no doubt, has its problems tooooooo!

But I also agree with you, Oracle is complex to install, but once installed
and well configured, it is a feature rich DB and an excellent performer. I
think Sybase is getting the message. The features added since 12.5GA are
excellent and beta of Sybase 15 will be out in Q2 04.

- Karl

"BSB" <ss> wrote in message news:3f86eb6c$1@forums-2-dub...
> I'm running ASE under Unix. Some of what I've seen over the past couple of
> years - phantom locks, the need to manipulate sysem tables, patches with
> serious bugs (one I saw was that a select distinct might not return
correct
> results), stack dumps, CIS performance, device corruption - I've never
seen
> these issues with Oracle, even while I was running under Windows NT.
> Featrure wise - "Java in the database" really is Java in the database in
> Oracle - you can write database procedures in PL/SQL (Oracle's procedural
> language) or Java, or some in one, some in the other. No need to fire up
the
> JVM everytime you wanted to execute Java code. Database functions can be
> written in PL/SQL - no need to learn Java. Procedures and functions could
> also be stored in database packages. PL/SQL is rich with functionality
> compared with TSQL. Arrays, PL/SQL tables, overloading, embedded
functions.
> Transaction logging is done in a much more effecient way using something
> called rollback segments. And I'm not so sure Sybase is all that much
> cheaper than Oracle anymore. In the hands of a skilled DBA, Oracle is a
much
> better performer.
>
>
> "Olivier Citeau" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:3f86890a$1@forums-1-dub...
> > I have only 2 year experience on ASE, but what do you mean when you say
> that ASE
> > is less stable ?
> >
> > Where i work, ASE works in a 24*7 environment. And it has been working
for
> 10
> > years at least.
> > When i say 24*7, i mean that there are always people doing OLTP
> processing, even
> > when our batchs runs at night
> >
> > On 9 Oct 2003 13:59:14 -0700,
> > in sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
> > BSB <ss> wrote:
> > >I've worked with Sybase and Oracle - Oracle is much, much more stable.
> The
> > >setup and architecture is more complex but with training and experience
> it
> > >becomes second nature. Everyone "I" ever talked to that used both gave
> > >Oracle a much better rating.
> > >
> > >
> > >"Olivier" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
> > >news:3f83da8f$1@forums-1-dub...
> > >> Why do not you use your full name ?
> > >>
> > >> I talked about Oracle8i in the general newsgroup, not because of
> "annoying
> > >> period characters" but to show how Sybase competitors were selling
> their
> > >> products.
> > >> Notice that the "i" doesn't mean nothing, but it sounds good.
> > >> It makes feel that your product is up to date.
> > >>
> > >> If you make a search in this forum, you'll see that some people made
> > >system
> > >> views in order to replace all this sp_things.
> > >> And yes, all this sp_things sucks.
> > >>
> > >> I am not a DBA, but i can guess what people here want.
> > >> They want that Oracle DBA's cry for all these nice stuff in ASE.
> > >>
> > >> They want that MS SQL Server bytes the dust in big companies.
> > >>
> > >> What i suggest:
> > >> There are 2 "Sybase Technical Evangelist" for powerbuilder.
> > >> How about an evangelist for ASE ?
> > >>
> >
> > Olivier Citeau from Paris, France
>
>


Leonardo Pasta Posted on 2003-10-13 13:53:13.0Z
From: Leonardo Pasta <lhpasta@performinformatica.com.br>
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BSB wrote:
> I'm running ASE under Unix. Some of what I've seen over the past couple of
> years - phantom locks, the need to manipulate sysem tables, patches with
> serious bugs (one I saw was that a select distinct might not return correct
> results), stack dumps, CIS performance, device corruption - I've never seen
> these issues with Oracle

Well, I support Sybase 12.5.0.3 on 2 major projects and never saw
these issues on Sybase, nor do I see it listed frequently on the
newsgroup/listservers. I think you are a little bit out of luck :)


> No need to fire up the
> JVM everytime you wanted to execute Java code.
I never had played with Java on Sybase (neither did it on Oracle) but
how do you expect a program to execute Java code without a JVM? I guess
that maybe Oracle is hidding the JVM instance from you.

>Database functions can be
> written in PL/SQL - no need to learn Java.
Agreed, this is a major issue in Sybase to me.

> Procedures and functions could
> also be stored in database packages.
Also a good feature

> PL/SQL is rich with functionality
> compared with TSQL. Arrays, PL/SQL tables, overloading, embedded functions.
Agreed too.

> Transaction logging is done in a much more effecient way using something
> called rollback segments.
How do you measure it? As I know, not every Oracle DBA love it as you
do.... "Snapshot segment is too old" and things like that are frequently
listed on the internet.....

> And I'm not so sure Sybase is all that much
> cheaper than Oracle anymore. In the hands of a skilled DBA, Oracle is a much
> better performer.
I really believe that the TCO for sybase is much lower than of
Oracle, As you said "In the hands of a Skilled DBA" Oracle can perform
well. With Sybase on many medium shops they didn't even need for a
Skilled Sybase DBA, just someone to support them eventually.
The way I see it, try to use Sybase on the "Oracle way" of doing
things is not the best approach to perform well on it. vice-versa.


My 0.02 cents
Leonardo Pasta


andrew schonberger Posted on 2003-10-15 06:08:42.0Z
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From: Andrew Schonberger
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Subject: Re: What I really want
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>>Database functions can be written in PL/SQL
>> - no need to learn Java.
> Agreed, this is a major issue in Sybase to me.
>
>> Procedures and functions could also be stored in
>> database packages.
> Also a good feature
>
>> PL/SQL is rich with functionality compared with TSQL.
>. Arrays, PL/SQL tables, overloading, embedded functions.
> Agreed too.

I'm a developer writing in both PL/SQL and T-SQL. The only
significant point I see in favour of Oracle is Multiversion
Concurrency.

In PL/SQL there is a sharp separation between the data in
rdbms tables and data in the program. I need to write an
explicit statement whenever crossing the boundary. Ever
tried to do the following in Oracle ?

if exists ( select 1 from mytable .... )
begin ...

Sybase helps me stay close to the data. Having packages and
other modular structures is fine for very large systems,
which need to be broken down into ever-diminishing pieces.
But for mid-sized or small systems, I'm talking directly to
business people. They couldn't care less how my program is
structured, but their eyes light up when I mention corporate
data. So, in my mind, the system is made up of a few main
logical entities, and there is also some code here or there.

I had a surprise when, on equal experience with PL/SQL and
T-SQL, I was offered higher rates on Sybase. This could have
something to do with the fact that Sybase is traditionally
used in finance and trading, where the business process is
complex and fequently changing, and requires a senior person
to take ownership.

If only Sybase had Multiversion Concurrency.... As it stands
now, even a simple Producer-Consumer task becomes a problem
( One process writes into a table, the second one reads from
it. Each is handling one record per iteration, and an
iteration consist of a long transaction. Classic
enqueue-dequeue. ) I can see Sybase is making efforts in
this area (readpast, RLL), but we don't have the real
solution yet.

Andrew Schonberger
Sydney


"Ilya Zvyagin" <ziv{ Posted on 2003-11-12 16:27:51.0Z
Reply-To: "Ilya Zvyagin" <ziv{@}fct{.}ru>
From: "Ilya Zvyagin" <ziv{@}fct{.}ru>
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Subject: Re: What I really want
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Hello, Andrew!
You wrote on 14 Oct 2003 23:08:42 -0700:

AS> If only Sybase had Multiversion Concurrency.... As it stands now, even a simple Producer-Consumer task becomes a
AS> problem ( One process writes into a table, the second one reads from it. Each is handling one record per
AS> iteration, and an iteration consist of a long transaction. Classic enqueue-dequeue. ) I can see Sybase is
AS> making efforts in this area (readpast, RLL), but we don't have the real solution yet.

Did you try using DOL (or , better, DRL) tables for this ? Inserts into a DRL table don't block
readers of the table at all.

------------------------------------
Ilya Zvyagin
E-mail: ziv[AT]fct[dot]ru
ICQ# 29427861


Eugene Korolkov Posted on 2003-11-13 20:26:58.0Z
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Subject: Re: What I really want
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Ilya,

This is not exactly true. If you have only inserts, then select will skip these
uncommitted inserts, but if you have to delete row, then
insert the same row (all in the same transaction), then readers will be
still locking on insert (See P&T 12.5.1, Locks, Chapter2, page 32)

I have tested that using "waitfor delay 00:01:00" before commit stmt.
Unfortunately that situation is common.

Also MVC not only about locking itself, but mostly about
read consistency from the time point of view which Sybase
does not support at all without locking in multiuser environment.


Regards,
Eugene

Ilya Zvyagin wrote:

> Hello, Andrew!
> You wrote on 14 Oct 2003 23:08:42 -0700:
>
> AS> If only Sybase had Multiversion Concurrency.... As it stands now, even a simple Producer-Consumer task becomes a
> AS> problem ( One process writes into a table, the second one reads from it. Each is handling one record per
> AS> iteration, and an iteration consist of a long transaction. Classic enqueue-dequeue. ) I can see Sybase is
> AS> making efforts in this area (readpast, RLL), but we don't have the real solution yet.
>
> Did you try using DOL (or , better, DRL) tables for this ? Inserts into a DRL table don't block
> readers of the table at all.
>
> ------------------------------------
> Ilya Zvyagin
> E-mail: ziv[AT]fct[dot]ru
> ICQ# 29427861


"Ilya Zvyagin" <ziv{ Posted on 2003-11-14 10:30:57.0Z
Reply-To: "Ilya Zvyagin" <ziv{@}fct{.}ru>
From: "Ilya Zvyagin" <ziv{@}fct{.}ru>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
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Hello, Eugene!
You wrote on 13 Nov 2003 12:26:58 -0800:

EK> This is not exactly true. If you have only inserts, then select will skip these uncommitted inserts, but if you
EK> have to delete row, then insert the same row (all in the same transaction), then readers will be still locking
EK> on insert (See P&T 12.5.1, Locks, Chapter2, page 32)

What do you mean by "insert the same row" ? The inserted row is always not same as the deleted.
Could you post some script that simulates the situation to let me understand it ?

------------------------------------
Ilya Zvyagin
E-mail: ziv[AT]fct[dot]ru
ICQ# 29427861


Eugene Korolkov Posted on 2003-11-14 21:58:30.0Z
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Ilya,

I also though the same, but looks like they understand that as that the
key value is the same. (something like the same spot in the box)

See below what I ran (on 12.5.0.1).
in 1-st session:
exec test_rll
in 2-nd:
select * from CDS_relief
go

IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.CDS_relief') IS NOT NULL
BEGIN
DROP TABLE dbo.CDS_relief
IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.CDS_relief') IS NOT NULL
PRINT '<<< FAILED DROPPING TABLE dbo.CDS_relief >>>'
ELSE
PRINT '<<< DROPPED TABLE dbo.CDS_relief >>>'
END
go
CREATE TABLE dbo.CDS_relief
(
rec_typ char(1) NOT NULL,
relief_pct float NOT NULL
)
LOCK DATAROWS
WITH EXP_ROW_SIZE=1
go
IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.CDS_relief') IS NOT NULL
PRINT '<<< CREATED TABLE dbo.CDS_relief >>>'
ELSE
PRINT '<<< FAILED CREATING TABLE dbo.CDS_relief >>>'
go
CREATE UNIQUE CLUSTERED INDEX index1
ON dbo.CDS_relief(rec_typ)
WITH IGNORE_DUP_KEY
go
IF EXISTS (SELECT * FROM sysindexes WHERE id=OBJECT_ID('dbo.CDS_relief') AND name='index1')
PRINT '<<< CREATED INDEX dbo.CDS_relief.index1 >>>'
ELSE
PRINT '<<< FAILED CREATING INDEX dbo.CDS_relief.index1 >>>'
go
--
-- TABLE INSERT STATEMENTS
--
INSERT INTO CDS_relief ( rec_typ, relief_pct )
VALUES ( 'P', 25 )
go
INSERT INTO CDS_relief ( rec_typ, relief_pct )
VALUES ( 'F', 50 )
go

IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.test_rll') IS NOT NULL
BEGIN
DROP PROCEDURE dbo.test_rll
IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.test_rll') IS NOT NULL
PRINT '<<< FAILED DROPPING PROCEDURE dbo.test_rll >>>'
ELSE
PRINT '<<< DROPPED PROCEDURE dbo.test_rll >>>'
END
go
create proc test_rll
as
begin tran
--update CDS_relief
--set relief_pct = 65.0
delete from CDS_relief
where rec_typ = "F"
insert into CDS_relief
--select * from CDS_relief
--where rec_typ = "F"
values ("F", 50.0)
waitfor delay "00:01:00"
commit tran
go

IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.test_rll') IS NOT NULL
PRINT '<<< CREATED PROCEDURE dbo.test_rll >>>'
ELSE
PRINT '<<< FAILED CREATING PROCEDURE dbo.test_rll >>>'
go
EXEC sp_procxmode 'dbo.test_rll','unchained'
go

Ilya Zvyagin wrote:

> Hello, Eugene!
> You wrote on 13 Nov 2003 12:26:58 -0800:
>
> EK> This is not exactly true. If you have only inserts, then select will skip these uncommitted inserts, but if you
> EK> have to delete row, then insert the same row (all in the same transaction), then readers will be still locking
> EK> on insert (See P&T 12.5.1, Locks, Chapter2, page 32)
>
> What do you mean by "insert the same row" ? The inserted row is always not same as the deleted.
> Could you post some script that simulates the situation to let me understand it ?
>
> ------------------------------------
> Ilya Zvyagin
> E-mail: ziv[AT]fct[dot]ru
> ICQ# 29427861


Carl Kayser Posted on 2003-10-13 16:03:30.0Z
From: "Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
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I'm (yet again) going to put my ignorance on display. For every "update"
ASE will write to the log device and (eventually) to the data device.
Oracle will write to the data device (eventually), the redo device, and the
undo device (deletes & updates but not inserts). So there is roughly 50+%
more IO with Oracle? (It's going to be more than 50% since both DBMSs are
smart and don't write data untill they have to.)

Now, some of this might be mitigated if you use Veritas. Or it might be
worse. I've never used the product. After all, the product doesn't really
know whether it's playing with regular user files versus database systems.
So, couldn't it place the redo and undo segments on the same physical device
at the lowest physical level (versus where the DBA has logically placed
them)? As far as I know, there is no free lunch and Veritas itself will
induce some performance overhead? (Yup, I REALLY don't know anything about
Veritas but I've often wondered about products that might possibly be
wearing "the emperors' new clothes".)

Finally something on more familiar ground. The liklihood of the events in
the first paragraph occurring are becoming more and more probable. Why?
Because the trend is toward fewer but much larger disks. And DBMSs like
many spindles and do not like fewer disk heads.

"BSB" <ss> wrote in message news:3f86eb6c$1@forums-2-dub...
> I'm running ASE under Unix. Some of what I've seen over the past couple of
> years - phantom locks, the need to manipulate sysem tables, patches with
> serious bugs (one I saw was that a select distinct might not return
correct
> results), stack dumps, CIS performance, device corruption - I've never
seen
> these issues with Oracle, even while I was running under Windows NT.
> Featrure wise - "Java in the database" really is Java in the database in
> Oracle - you can write database procedures in PL/SQL (Oracle's procedural
> language) or Java, or some in one, some in the other. No need to fire up
the
> JVM everytime you wanted to execute Java code. Database functions can be
> written in PL/SQL - no need to learn Java. Procedures and functions could
> also be stored in database packages. PL/SQL is rich with functionality
> compared with TSQL. Arrays, PL/SQL tables, overloading, embedded
functions.
> Transaction logging is done in a much more effecient way using something
> called rollback segments. And I'm not so sure Sybase is all that much
> cheaper than Oracle anymore. In the hands of a skilled DBA, Oracle is a
much
> better performer.
>
>

(SNIP)


sybase Posted on 2003-11-01 17:11:58.0Z
From: "sybase" <shui@so-net.com.hk>
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I don't agree to your point that "Sybase is less stable than Oracle"

I am working in a major US investment bank which they use Sybase as their
main RDBMS. All Sybase are running on Sun Solaris. Sybase is working very
good and rock solid. There is *0* downtime in last 2 years due to database
problem.

Sybase has no fancy features than other RDBMS, no gimmick but it can deliver
what u want. it require less resource than Oracle and better TCO.

"BSB" <ss> wrote in message news:3f85ccf2$1@forums-2-dub...
> I've worked with Sybase and Oracle - Oracle is much, much more stable. The
> setup and architecture is more complex but with training and experience it
> becomes second nature. Everyone "I" ever talked to that used both gave
> Oracle a much better rating.
>
>
> "Olivier" <ociteau-NOCANSPAM@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:3f83da8f$1@forums-1-dub...
> > Why do not you use your full name ?
> >
> > I talked about Oracle8i in the general newsgroup, not because of
"annoying
> > period characters" but to show how Sybase competitors were selling their
> > products.
> > Notice that the "i" doesn't mean nothing, but it sounds good.
> > It makes feel that your product is up to date.
> >
> > If you make a search in this forum, you'll see that some people made
> system
> > views in order to replace all this sp_things.
> > And yes, all this sp_things sucks.
> >
> > I am not a DBA, but i can guess what people here want.
> > They want that Oracle DBA's cry for all these nice stuff in ASE.
> >
> > They want that MS SQL Server bytes the dust in big companies.
> >
> > What i suggest:
> > There are 2 "Sybase Technical Evangelist" for powerbuilder.
> > How about an evangelist for ASE ?
> >
> > On 7 Oct 2003 14:29:00 -0700,
> > in sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
> > <RP_Wannabe> wrote:
> > >I would like Sybase to stop logging to a transaction log,
> > >and completely rewrite their transaction architecture to use
> > >what I'll call redo, and undo segments.
> > >
> > >But don't stop here. Also, change the nature of the system
> > >tables so that they are views created on incredibly obscure
> > >and undocumented system tables so that I don't have to write
> > >one line of whatever these things called "stored procedures"
> > >are.
> > >
> > >Lastly, I think they ought to rename ASE 12.5.1 to "ASE 12i"
> > >since I don't want to be bothered typing those annoying
> > >period characters.
> > >
> > >Oh wait, forget everything I've ever said. Please, just
> > >please, make everything in ASE look just like Oracle so I
> > >don't have to bother to learn anything new. I can't think
> > >any other way...
> > >
> > >Ryan
> >
> > Olivier Citeau from Paris, France
> > Powerbuilder developper
>
>