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a few small things

9 posts in Product Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2004-01-27 20:34:47.0Z
"Karl Ritter" Posted on 2004-01-23 23:10:16.0Z
From: "Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
Subject: a few small things
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Here are a few small things I would like to see in future releases.

The goal is to make Sybase easier to use and bring the best out of it.

1) Change default "lock scheme" to datapages

The fact that you cannot use reorg on allpage tables is a real shame. Is
there any reason to have datapages as the default. The fact is that it can
be changed, but changing configs on production databases is a real struggle
in some cases and it doesnt change the 1000's of tables in allpage. I don't
trust changing table lock scheme without re-creating triggers. So, the whole
thing becomes very complex. It's time to change!!!!

2) provide a cmd line tools to dump database, update stats, run
checkstorage, etc

ex:
sybutil -Usa -P*** -Smyserver -backupall -dir /sybase_backup
sybutil -Usa -P*** -Smyserver -updatestat -Dall

Reason: There are lots of junior DBA's out there. Let's make their life
easier.


3) Limit the number of Java apps. I am starting to really dislike Java.
Java in the browser, ok that is cool. But Java on my desktop, no THANKS.
In most cases, java is unfriendly to use, slow, and a nightmare to launch.
Sybase Central Java edition has been the buggiest app I have used in a lot
time. Unacceptable!

I find it a complete joke that Sun is pushing their Java junk on the
desktop. Take a look at their Java Desktop System. I like Gnome. The apps
are great. But all the Java apps that come with the Sun Java Desktop System
are complete junk. Really unfriendly junk.

4) Provide readonly, readwrite, etc groups that are automatically kept
updated.

5) Integrate more IQ goodies into ASE

6) This would be reall nice

sp_configure "tran dump dest", null, "/sybase_backup/tran"
go
sp_configure "tran dump percentage full", 50
go
sp_dboption mydb, "auto dump", 'true'
go

When syslogs is 50% full, sybase dumps the log to "/sybase_backup/tran"
with a nicely formated filename.


7) Get this versoning mess fixed. What's the point of ASE-12_0 or
OCS-12_5. I dont get it? Just makes life complex. I have an installation
with ASE 12.0.0.4 ESD #2, and in the same directory, Rep Server 12.1 was
installed. It doesn't work.

Does installing ASE 12.5.1 into a ASE 12.0 directory work. No it doesn't!
Let's get this fixed !

How about this, or something like this,

/apps/sybase/ase-120
/apps/sybase/ase-125
/apps/sybase/iq-125
/apps/sybase/rep-121


Another example, I installed Rep Server 12.5 PC-Client software onto my PC
with 12.5.0.3 ESD#3. After that, my isql stopped working, but what really
got me smoking was that the 12.5 Rep server plug-in couldn't connect to my
Rep Server 12.1. Oh my god! It's time to get this fixed. Make
plug-ins backwards compatable and have Sybase Central come with ALL
plug-ins. Think about the DBA. Make his life easier.
That's all for today,

- Karl


Michael Peppler Posted on 2004-01-24 01:55:32.0Z
From: "Michael Peppler" <mpeppler@peppler.org>
Subject: Re: a few small things
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On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:10:16 -0800, Karl Ritter wrote:

> Here are a few small things I would like to see in future releases.
>
> The goal is to make Sybase easier to use and bring the best out of it.
>

> 2) provide a cmd line tools to dump database, update stats, run
> checkstorage, etc
>
> ex:
> sybutil -Usa -P*** -Smyserver -backupall -dir /sybase_backup
> sybutil -Usa -P*** -Smyserver -updatestat -Dall
>
> Reason: There are lots of junior DBA's out there. Let's make their life
> easier.

Understandable - though a simple solution would be for Sybase to ship a
few simple perl or shell scripts that can do this (and the scripts are
really quite trivial to write!)


> 6) This would be reall nice
>
> sp_configure "tran dump dest", null, "/sybase_backup/tran" go
> sp_configure "tran dump percentage full", 50 go
> sp_dboption mydb, "auto dump", 'true' go
>
> When syslogs is 50% full, sybase dumps the log to "/sybase_backup/tran"
> with a nicely formated filename.

Fairly simple to do with a threshold proc, no?

(I'm not saying that the above wouldn't be a nice addition, but it's not
high on my priority list)

Michael
--
Michael Peppler Data Migrations, Inc.
mpeppler@peppler.org http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler
Sybase T-SQL/OpenClient/OpenServer/C/Perl developer available for short or
long term contract positions - http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler/resume.html


"Karl Ritter" Posted on 2004-01-24 09:29:50.0Z
From: "Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
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I don't quite agree with you. I believe we are looking at things
differently.

> > When syslogs is 50% full, sybase dumps the log to "/sybase_backup/tran"
> Fairly simple to do with a threshold proc, no?

Actually it isn't. If you are a real Sybase expert, then OK, it might be.
Let's compaire Sybase, Oracle, and SQL Server 2000 on this.

Oracle: Change 2 parameters, restart server, alter system archivelog et
voila!!!
SQLServer 2000: Click, click click done!!!!!
Sybase: Write a threashold stored procedure, calculate the number of free
pages, sp_addthreshold
Everytime you resize the DB log, calculate the number of free
pages, delete threshold, add threshold

Michael, you are one of the most knowledgable Sybase expert. Its a piece of
cake for you. For a junior DBA, its a struggle.


> > 2) provide a cmd line tools to dump database, update stats,
> Understandable - though a simple solution would be for Sybase to ship a
> few simple perl or shell scripts that can do this (and the scripts are
> really quite trivial to write!)

It would take less than 6 months to write sybutil for a good Sybase
programmer. I strongly believe those 6 months would be well invested for
Sybase. I would prefer an execuatble than a shell script or perl script.

- Karl


"Michael Peppler" <mpeppler@peppler.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.01.24.01.39.27.589647@peppler.org...
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:10:16 -0800, Karl Ritter wrote:
>
> > Here are a few small things I would like to see in future releases.
> >
> > The goal is to make Sybase easier to use and bring the best out of it.
> >
>
> > 2) provide a cmd line tools to dump database, update stats, run
> > checkstorage, etc
> >
> > ex:
> > sybutil -Usa -P*** -Smyserver -backupall -dir
/sybase_backup
> > sybutil -Usa -P*** -Smyserver -updatestat -Dall
> >
> > Reason: There are lots of junior DBA's out there. Let's make their life
> > easier.
>
> Understandable - though a simple solution would be for Sybase to ship a
> few simple perl or shell scripts that can do this (and the scripts are
> really quite trivial to write!)
>
>
> > 6) This would be reall nice
> >
> > sp_configure "tran dump dest", null, "/sybase_backup/tran" go
> > sp_configure "tran dump percentage full", 50 go
> > sp_dboption mydb, "auto dump", 'true' go
> >
> > When syslogs is 50% full, sybase dumps the log to "/sybase_backup/tran"
> > with a nicely formated filename.
>
> Fairly simple to do with a threshold proc, no?
>
> (I'm not saying that the above wouldn't be a nice addition, but it's not
> high on my priority list)
>
> Michael
> --
> Michael Peppler Data Migrations, Inc.
> mpeppler@peppler.org http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler
> Sybase T-SQL/OpenClient/OpenServer/C/Perl developer available for short or
> long term contract positions - http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler/resume.html
>


Michael Peppler Posted on 2004-01-27 01:02:11.0Z
From: "Michael Peppler" <mpeppler@peppler.org>
Subject: Re: a few small things
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On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:29:50 -0800, Karl Ritter wrote:

>> > When syslogs is 50% full, sybase dumps the log to
>> > "/sybase_backup/tran"
>> Fairly simple to do with a threshold proc, no?
>
> Actually it isn't. If you are a real Sybase expert, then OK, it might be.
> Let's compaire Sybase, Oracle, and SQL Server 2000 on this.
>
> Oracle: Change 2 parameters, restart server, alter system archivelog
> et voila!!!
> SQLServer 2000: Click, click click done!!!!! Sybase: Write a threashold
> stored procedure, calculate the number of free pages, sp_addthreshold
> Everytime you resize the DB log, calculate the number of
> free
> pages, delete threshold, add threshold
>
> Michael, you are one of the most knowledgable Sybase expert. Its a piece
> of cake for you. For a junior DBA, its a struggle.

I'm flattered :-)


>> > 2) provide a cmd line tools to dump database, update stats,
>> Understandable - though a simple solution would be for Sybase to ship a
>> few simple perl or shell scripts that can do this (and the scripts are
>> really quite trivial to write!)
>
> It would take less than 6 months to write sybutil for a good Sybase
> programmer. I strongly believe those 6 months would be well invested for
> Sybase. I would prefer an execuatble than a shell script or perl script.

I've been thinking about this over the week-end, and I don't really see
how a command line tool would be any simpler than using isql and learning
the SQL syntax for these operations.

I have a perl script to perform backups, and that script already takes 12
command-line arguments. The same for a different script that handles
transaction dumps. Then you have the various versions of update stats, and
so on, and very soon you have so many command-line switches that
remembering them all becomes impossible.

Still - if you send me the commands that you'd like to see supported by
such a tool (and the variations/options for each command) I'm quite
willing to write it (in perl to start with - because it would take
me much too long to write this in C)

Michael
--
Michael Peppler Data Migrations, Inc.
mpeppler@peppler.org http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler
Sybase T-SQL/OpenClient/OpenServer/C/Perl developer available for short or
long term contract positions - http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler/resume.html


"Karl Ritter" Posted on 2004-01-27 20:34:47.0Z
From: "Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
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Hi Michael,

The reason why I suggested that Sybase developed a tool like sybutil is
to make Sybase ASE simpler and easier to use.

The database market is very competitive, and I want Sybase to continue to do
well. I am working as a Sybase DBA for a large European bank, and I can
tell you that there are a large number of poorly written scripts that
maintain the databases. In our case, a number of problems could have been
avoided had there been a tool like sybutil and I am sure we are not
unique.

Have you ever thought about the amount of work it takes to install Sybase,
and install the maintenance scripts for a new Sybase DBA.

My guess is about 2 weeks without sybutil, and 4 hours with sybutil. That
is a huge difference.

It takes time to write a good backup script, a check storage script, an
error log checker, an update stat script and a reorg script.

As I said, sybutil would take no more than 6 months of work for a good
Sybase developer. That's peanuts for Sybase. Time and money well spent for
Sybase.

- Karl

"Michael Peppler" <mpeppler@peppler.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.01.27.00.45.44.503999@peppler.org...
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:29:50 -0800, Karl Ritter wrote:
>
> >> > When syslogs is 50% full, sybase dumps the log to
> >> > "/sybase_backup/tran"
> >> Fairly simple to do with a threshold proc, no?
> >
> > Actually it isn't. If you are a real Sybase expert, then OK, it might
be.
> > Let's compaire Sybase, Oracle, and SQL Server 2000 on this.
> >
> > Oracle: Change 2 parameters, restart server, alter system archivelog
> > et voila!!!
> > SQLServer 2000: Click, click click done!!!!! Sybase: Write a
threashold
> > stored procedure, calculate the number of free pages, sp_addthreshold
> > Everytime you resize the DB log, calculate the number of
> > free
> > pages, delete threshold, add threshold
> >
> > Michael, you are one of the most knowledgable Sybase expert. Its a piece
> > of cake for you. For a junior DBA, its a struggle.
>
> I'm flattered :-)
>
>
> >> > 2) provide a cmd line tools to dump database, update stats,
> >> Understandable - though a simple solution would be for Sybase to ship a
> >> few simple perl or shell scripts that can do this (and the scripts are
> >> really quite trivial to write!)
> >
> > It would take less than 6 months to write sybutil for a good Sybase
> > programmer. I strongly believe those 6 months would be well invested for
> > Sybase. I would prefer an execuatble than a shell script or perl script.
>
> I've been thinking about this over the week-end, and I don't really see
> how a command line tool would be any simpler than using isql and learning
> the SQL syntax for these operations.
>
> I have a perl script to perform backups, and that script already takes 12
> command-line arguments. The same for a different script that handles
> transaction dumps. Then you have the various versions of update stats, and
> so on, and very soon you have so many command-line switches that
> remembering them all becomes impossible.
>
> Still - if you send me the commands that you'd like to see supported by
> such a tool (and the variations/options for each command) I'm quite
> willing to write it (in perl to start with - because it would take
> me much too long to write this in C)
>
> Michael
> --
> Michael Peppler Data Migrations, Inc.
> mpeppler@peppler.org http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler
> Sybase T-SQL/OpenClient/OpenServer/C/Perl developer available for short or
> long term contract positions - http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler/resume.html
>


Carl Kayser Posted on 2004-01-24 12:59:31.0Z
From: "Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov>
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"Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com> wrote in message
news:4011a9d8$1@forums-1-dub...
> Here are a few small things I would like to see in future releases.
>
> The goal is to make Sybase easier to use and bring the best out of it.
>
> 1) Change default "lock scheme" to datapages
>

(SNIP)

I'm not sure as to which was the earliest available version, but one can
'sp_configure "lock scheme", <datapages>' with ASE 12.0. On the other hand,
it does not appear as if you can override the server default with a
database-wide default.


"Karl Ritter" Posted on 2004-01-24 15:29:45.0Z
From: "Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com>
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> 'sp_configure "lock scheme", <datapages>' with ASE 12.0. On the other
hand,

You can always change the default as you said. The big problem with having a
bad default setting is that most projects happen to use default settings.
Changing 'lock scheme' to datapages only changes the futher lock scheme of
tables that will be created.

I have 1000's of tables with allpages lock scheme and I can't run reorg on
them. It's a real shame.

If you look at ASE 12.0 and ASE 12.5 you will notice that Sybase did
change default setting of "tcp no delay" from 0 to 1

My recommendation is that the same should be done with "lock scheme".
Change the default to datapages. It is a better default setting.

- Karl

"Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov> wrote in message
news:40126c33@forums-1-dub...
>
> "Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com> wrote in message
> news:4011a9d8$1@forums-1-dub...
> > Here are a few small things I would like to see in future releases.
> >
> > The goal is to make Sybase easier to use and bring the best out of it.
> >
> > 1) Change default "lock scheme" to datapages
> >
>
> (SNIP)
>
> I'm not sure as to which was the earliest available version, but one can
> 'sp_configure "lock scheme", <datapages>' with ASE 12.0. On the other
hand,
> it does not appear as if you can override the server default with a
> database-wide default.
>
>


Ryan Putnam Posted on 2004-01-24 16:58:18.0Z
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Subject: Re: a few small things
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eyes.
-- Woodrow Wilson

I think we can see a changing paradigm in our requests.


Rob Verschoor Posted on 2004-01-24 19:03:27.0Z
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From: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
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Subject: Re: a few small things
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"Karl Ritter" <karl.ritter (at) europe.com> wrote in message
news:401291b7$1@forums-2-dub...
>
> > 'sp_configure "lock scheme", <datapages>' with ASE 12.0. On the
other
> hand,
>
> You can always change the default as you said. The big problem with
having a
> bad default setting is that most projects happen to use default
settings.
> Changing 'lock scheme' to datapages only changes the futher lock
scheme of
> tables that will be created.
>
> I have 1000's of tables with allpages lock scheme and I can't run
reorg on
> them. It's a real shame.
>
> If you look at ASE 12.0 and ASE 12.5 you will notice that Sybase
did
> change default setting of "tcp no delay" from 0 to 1
>
> My recommendation is that the same should be done with "lock
scheme".
> Change the default to datapages. It is a better default setting.
>
> - Karl
>

I agree - I'd prefer 'datapages' as the out-of-the-box default.

HTH,

Rob
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Verschoor

Certified Sybase Professional DBA for ASE 12.5/12.0/11.5/11.0
and Replication Server 12.5

Author of "Tips, Tricks & Recipes for Sybase ASE" and
"The Complete Sybase ASE Quick Reference Guide"
Online orders accepted at http://www.sypron.nl/shop

mailto:rob@YOUR.SPAM.sypron.nl.NOT.FOR.ME
http://www.sypron.nl
Sypron B.V., P.O.Box 10695, 2501HR Den Haag, The Netherlands
-------------------------------------------------------------