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Eat Your Own Dog Food

12 posts in PB Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2011-12-23 17:29:44.0Z
Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-09 00:42:50.0Z
Reply-To: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
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Subject: Eat Your Own Dog Food
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One of the most important rules in software is to eat your own dog food.
The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your product, you use it.
This was a great article recently on Google ....
http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-google-plus/

This message though is a good thing to keep in mind for Sybase as they
embark on PB 15. Why, because at PowerSoft for example all technical support
guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking system), application
developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory, Accounting, etc
applications), I even saw the SVP and Dave Litwack program in it to build
shareholder presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the product.

If Sybase is to successfully address the PB Ecosystem they need to
demonstrate that they use their own product for web, cloud, smart devices,
etc applications.

--
Regards .... Chris Pollach
President: Software Tool & Die Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.pbdjmagazine.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass


Roland Smith [TeamSybase] Posted on 2011-10-09 22:26:04.0Z
From: "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <Roland@topwizprogramming.com>
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They definitely need some experienced PB developers embedded in the PB
engineering group whose task is to develop a real web application using
PB. This is the best way for PB 15 .Net web deployment capabilities to
be good enough to be used in real world business application.

On 10/8/2011 8:42 PM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> One of the most important rules in software is to eat your own dog food.
> The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your product, you use it.
> This was a great article recently on Google ....
> http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-google-plus/
>
> This message though is a good thing to keep in mind for Sybase as they
> embark on PB 15. Why, because at PowerSoft for example all technical support
> guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking system), application
> developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory, Accounting, etc
> applications), I even saw the SVP and Dave Litwack program in it to build
> shareholder presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the product.
>
> If Sybase is to successfully address the PB Ecosystem they need to
> demonstrate that they use their own product for web, cloud, smart devices,
> etc applications.
>


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-11 16:58:53.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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Touché!

"Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <Roland@topwizprogramming.com> wrote in message
news:4e921f7c$1@forums-1-dub...
> They definitely need some experienced PB developers embedded in the PB
> engineering group whose task is to develop a real web application using
> PB. This is the best way for PB 15 .Net web deployment capabilities to be
> good enough to be used in real world business application.
>
> On 10/8/2011 8:42 PM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>> One of the most important rules in software is to eat your own dog
>> food.
>> The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your product, you use
>> it.
>> This was a great article recently on Google ....
>> http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-google-plus/
>>
>> This message though is a good thing to keep in mind for Sybase as
>> they
>> embark on PB 15. Why, because at PowerSoft for example all technical
>> support
>> guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking system),
>> application
>> developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory, Accounting, etc
>> applications), I even saw the SVP and Dave Litwack program in it to build
>> shareholder presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the
>> product.
>>
>> If Sybase is to successfully address the PB Ecosystem they need to
>> demonstrate that they use their own product for web, cloud, smart
>> devices,
>> etc applications.
>>


Brett Weaver Posted on 2011-10-09 04:00:50.0Z
From: Brett Weaver <bretnsp@weaversoft.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Subject: Re: Eat Your Own Dog Food
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I thought for a minute you were back on subjects gastronomic again!
:-)

I disagree that Sybase should use PB for all of its development.

Surely, in the past they could have used it more and that would have
brought benefits.
SAP have used PB in a retail module and I think thats progress.

PB is a 4GL which means it will hopefully be more productive in the
environments and paradigm is it designed to support. A 4GL will never
be as precise or tailorable as a 3 or 2GL in a development
environment.It will also not support paradigms that it is not designed
for. Fine. Its a tool for a lot of jobs, just not all.

I will be happy if PB can deliver Business oriented, data reliant,
user applications to a couple more targets (Web, Mobile) than it does
at the moment.

And, in concert with your theme, I'm sure if Onkel SAP uses it more,
Sybase will be more than happy to enhance it.



On 8 Oct 2011 17:42:50 -0700, "Chris Pollach"

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

> One of the most important rules in software is to eat your own dog food.
>The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your product, you use it.
>This was a great article recently on Google ....
>http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-google-plus/
>
> This message though is a good thing to keep in mind for Sybase as they
>embark on PB 15. Why, because at PowerSoft for example all technical support
>guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking system), application
>developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory, Accounting, etc
>applications), I even saw the SVP and Dave Litwack program in it to build
>shareholder presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the product.
>
> If Sybase is to successfully address the PB Ecosystem they need to
>demonstrate that they use their own product for web, cloud, smart devices,
>etc applications.


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-10-11 16:58:06.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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Hi Brett;


I am sure that PB customers would be happy with any development in each
of the areas I mentioned to demonstrate a full commitment to the tool! I
don't see that Oracle, MS, etc having any issues using their own products
internally where ever they can. :-)

Regards ... Chris

"Brett Weaver" <bretnsp@weaversoft.com> wrote in message
news:k9629717mtfioj5j13gcajpb5fbhqfkuda@4ax.com...
>I thought for a minute you were back on subjects gastronomic again!
> :-)
>
> I disagree that Sybase should use PB for all of its development.
>
> Surely, in the past they could have used it more and that would have
> brought benefits.
> SAP have used PB in a retail module and I think thats progress.
>
> PB is a 4GL which means it will hopefully be more productive in the
> environments and paradigm is it designed to support. A 4GL will never
> be as precise or tailorable as a 3 or 2GL in a development
> environment.It will also not support paradigms that it is not designed
> for. Fine. Its a tool for a lot of jobs, just not all.
>
> I will be happy if PB can deliver Business oriented, data reliant,
> user applications to a couple more targets (Web, Mobile) than it does
> at the moment.
>
> And, in concert with your theme, I'm sure if Onkel SAP uses it more,
> Sybase will be more than happy to enhance it.
>
>
>
> On 8 Oct 2011 17:42:50 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>> One of the most important rules in software is to eat your own dog
>> food.
>>The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your product, you use it.
>>This was a great article recently on Google ....
>>http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-google-plus/
>>
>> This message though is a good thing to keep in mind for Sybase as they
>>embark on PB 15. Why, because at PowerSoft for example all technical
>>support
>>guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking system),
>>application
>>developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory, Accounting, etc
>>applications), I even saw the SVP and Dave Litwack program in it to build
>>shareholder presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the
>>product.
>>
>> If Sybase is to successfully address the PB Ecosystem they need to
>>demonstrate that they use their own product for web, cloud, smart devices,
>>etc applications.


Bruce Armstrong Posted on 2011-11-08 22:25:31.0Z
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Subject: Re: Eat Your Own Dog Food
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What about externally? Check out Oracle's support site
Metalink. It's written using.....Flash? Isn't that an
Adobe product? Oracle doesn't seem to have a problem using
somebody else's product for an *external* web site.

https://support.oracle.com/CSP/ui/flash.html

> Hi Brett;
>
>
> I am sure that PB customers would be happy with any
> development in each of the areas I mentioned to
> demonstrate a full commitment to the tool! I don't see
> that Oracle, MS, etc having any issues using their own
> products internally where ever they can. :-)
>
> Regards ... Chris
>
>
> "Brett Weaver" <bretnsp@weaversoft.com> wrote in message
> news:k9629717mtfioj5j13gcajpb5fbhqfkuda@4ax.com...
> >I thought for a minute you were back on subjects
> > gastronomic again! :-)
> >
> > I disagree that Sybase should use PB for all of its
> development. >
> > Surely, in the past they could have used it more and
> > that would have brought benefits.
> > SAP have used PB in a retail module and I think thats
> progress. >
> > PB is a 4GL which means it will hopefully be more
> > productive in the environments and paradigm is it
> > designed to support. A 4GL will never be as precise or
> > tailorable as a 3 or 2GL in a development environment.It
> > will also not support paradigms that it is not designed
> for. Fine. Its a tool for a lot of jobs, just not all. >
> > I will be happy if PB can deliver Business oriented,
> > data reliant, user applications to a couple more targets
> > (Web, Mobile) than it does at the moment.
> >
> > And, in concert with your theme, I'm sure if Onkel SAP
> > uses it more, Sybase will be more than happy to enhance
> it. >
> >
> >
> > On 8 Oct 2011 17:42:50 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
> > <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One of the most important rules in software is to
> eat your own dog >> food.
> >>The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your
> product, you use it. >>This was a great article recently
> on Google ....
> >>http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-googl
> e-plus/ >>
> >> This message though is a good thing to keep in mind
> for Sybase as they >>embark on PB 15. Why, because at
> PowerSoft for example all technical >>support
> >>guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking
> system), >>application
> >>developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory,
> Accounting, etc >>applications), I even saw the SVP and
> Dave Litwack program in it to build >>shareholder
> presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the
> >>product. >>
> >> If Sybase is to successfully address the PB
> Ecosystem they need to >>demonstrate that they use their
> own product for web, cloud, smart devices, >>etc
> applications.
>
>


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-11-09 12:38:58.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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Bruce;

That's only one small place where Oracle does not use its own tools (hey
they could be buying Adobe soon anyway). :-)

In the case of Sybase, we virtually see nothing of PB being used. :-(

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

<Bruce Armstrong> wrote in message
news:4eb9ac5b.9dc.1681692777@sybase.com...
>
> What about externally? Check out Oracle's support site
> Metalink. It's written using.....Flash? Isn't that an
> Adobe product? Oracle doesn't seem to have a problem using
> somebody else's product for an *external* web site.
>
> https://support.oracle.com/CSP/ui/flash.html
>
>> Hi Brett;
>>
>>
>> I am sure that PB customers would be happy with any
>> development in each of the areas I mentioned to
>> demonstrate a full commitment to the tool! I don't see
>> that Oracle, MS, etc having any issues using their own
>> products internally where ever they can. :-)
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>>
>>
>> "Brett Weaver" <bretnsp@weaversoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:k9629717mtfioj5j13gcajpb5fbhqfkuda@4ax.com...
>> >I thought for a minute you were back on subjects
>> > gastronomic again! :-)
>> >
>> > I disagree that Sybase should use PB for all of its
>> development. >
>> > Surely, in the past they could have used it more and
>> > that would have brought benefits.
>> > SAP have used PB in a retail module and I think thats
>> progress. >
>> > PB is a 4GL which means it will hopefully be more
>> > productive in the environments and paradigm is it
>> > designed to support. A 4GL will never be as precise or
>> > tailorable as a 3 or 2GL in a development environment.It
>> > will also not support paradigms that it is not designed
>> for. Fine. Its a tool for a lot of jobs, just not all. >
>> > I will be happy if PB can deliver Business oriented,
>> > data reliant, user applications to a couple more targets
>> > (Web, Mobile) than it does at the moment.
>> >
>> > And, in concert with your theme, I'm sure if Onkel SAP
>> > uses it more, Sybase will be more than happy to enhance
>> it. >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 8 Oct 2011 17:42:50 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
>> > <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> One of the most important rules in software is to
>> eat your own dog >> food.
>> >>The concept is simple: If you have confidence in your
>> product, you use it. >>This was a great article recently
>> on Google ....
>> >>http://mashable.com/2011/10/04/google-needs-to-use-googl
>> e-plus/ >>
>> >> This message though is a good thing to keep in mind
>> for Sybase as they >>embark on PB 15. Why, because at
>> PowerSoft for example all technical >>support
>> >>guys programmed in it (they built the problem tracking
>> system), >>application
>> >>developers used it (they built CRM, Inventory,
>> Accounting, etc >>applications), I even saw the SVP and
>> Dave Litwack program in it to build >>shareholder
>> presentations. The whole company lived and breathed the
>> >>product. >>
>> >> If Sybase is to successfully address the PB
>> Ecosystem they need to >>demonstrate that they use their
>> own product for web, cloud, smart devices, >>etc
>> applications.
>>
>>


Dave Fish [Sybase] Posted on 2011-11-09 16:58:35.0Z
From: "Dave Fish [Sybase]" <n0Spam__dfish@sybase.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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PowerBuilder is used for several internal systems at Sybase. We've
never made a secret of the fact that PowerBuilder isn't suited for
external web applications due to its browser restrictions. That's why
customer facing web applications don't use PowerBuilder.

On 9 Nov 2011 04:38:58 -0800, "Chris Pollach"

<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>
>Bruce;
>
> That's only one small place where Oracle does not use its own tools (hey
>they could be buying Adobe soon anyway). :-)
>
>In the case of Sybase, we virtually see nothing of PB being used. :-(


Dave Fish [Sybase] Posted on 2011-11-09 18:49:02.0Z
From: "Dave Fish [Sybase]" <n0Spam__dfish@sybase.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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Yes with the demise of PocketBuilder that statement is no longer true.

On 9 Nov 2011 09:51:58 -0800, Troy <me@heree.com> wrote:

>PowerBuilder supports your RDBMS of choice, communicates via Web Services,
>produces .NET assemblies, and deploys to your platform of choice. One tool
>does it all, solving your data-driven application development needs for
>the desktop, Web, mobile and distributed environments.
>
>That's from the Sybase Powerbuilder web site. I agree with you. Always
>have on this issue. But why then does Sybase try to sell other people on
>using for their web sites? I've only argued against this for years only to
>be told that I was wrong or had some other agenda. Since that is now
>validated can we move on to the mobile segment of the false statement?
>
>
>Troy
>
>
>On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:58:35 -0600, Dave Fish [Sybase]
><n0Spam__dfish@sybase.com> wrote:
>
>> PowerBuilder is used for several internal systems at Sybase. We've
>> never made a secret of the fact that PowerBuilder isn't suited for
>> external web applications due to its browser restrictions. That's why
>> customer facing web applications don't use PowerBuilder.
>>
>> On 9 Nov 2011 04:38:58 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Bruce;
>>>
>>> That's only one small place where Oracle does not use its own tools
>>> (hey
>>> they could be buying Adobe soon anyway). :-)
>>>
>>> In the case of Sybase, we virtually see nothing of PB being used. :-(


Roland Smith [TeamSybase] Posted on 2011-12-20 17:21:27.0Z
From: "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <rsmith@trusthss.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
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Subject: Re: Eat Your Own Dog Food
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One could argue that the reason PowerBuilder is not suitable for external
web applications is because nobody inside Sybase is attempting to use it for
that purpose.

PowerBuilder made a big leap forward functionality-wise in version 5 because
the PFC developers were working internally telling the PB development team
what was needed and giving them instant feedback.

Sybase needs the same thing again if they really want to see PowerBuilder be
suitable for real web development. They need a group of experienced
PowerBuilder developers who also have some web developmment experience in
other languages who are tasked with developing an external facing web
application in PowerBuilder and are given direct access to the PB
development team and the authority needed so that the PB development team
will make the required changes.

I would suggest the bug/enhancement tracking system as a good candidate for
this purpose.

"Dave Fish [Sybase]" <n0Spam__dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:96clb7l2kqi0jt4347t14cfskofahmtas4@4ax.com...
> PowerBuilder is used for several internal systems at Sybase. We've
> never made a secret of the fact that PowerBuilder isn't suited for
> external web applications due to its browser restrictions. That's why
> customer facing web applications don't use PowerBuilder.
>
> On 9 Nov 2011 04:38:58 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Bruce;
>>
>> That's only one small place where Oracle does not use its own tools
>> (hey
>>they could be buying Adobe soon anyway). :-)
>>
>>In the case of Sybase, we virtually see nothing of PB being used. :-(


Trevor Holyoak Posted on 2011-12-23 17:07:46.0Z
From: Trevor Holyoak <trevorh@uuinsurance.com>
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I've thought it very interesting that the SQL Anywhere team has made the
effort necessary to make it work with Wordpress for their external blog
site.

- Trevor

On 12/20/2011 10:21 AM, Roland Smith [TeamSybase] wrote:
> One could argue that the reason PowerBuilder is not suitable for external
> web applications is because nobody inside Sybase is attempting to use it for
> that purpose.
>
> PowerBuilder made a big leap forward functionality-wise in version 5 because
> the PFC developers were working internally telling the PB development team
> what was needed and giving them instant feedback.
>
> Sybase needs the same thing again if they really want to see PowerBuilder be
> suitable for real web development. They need a group of experienced
> PowerBuilder developers who also have some web developmment experience in
> other languages who are tasked with developing an external facing web
> application in PowerBuilder and are given direct access to the PB
> development team and the authority needed so that the PB development team
> will make the required changes.
>
> I would suggest the bug/enhancement tracking system as a good candidate for
> this purpose.
>
> "Dave Fish [Sybase]"<n0Spam__dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message
> news:96clb7l2kqi0jt4347t14cfskofahmtas4@4ax.com...
>> PowerBuilder is used for several internal systems at Sybase. We've
>> never made a secret of the fact that PowerBuilder isn't suited for
>> external web applications due to its browser restrictions. That's why
>> customer facing web applications don't use PowerBuilder.
>>
>> On 9 Nov 2011 04:38:58 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Bruce;
>>>
>>> That's only one small place where Oracle does not use its own tools
>>> (hey
>>> they could be buying Adobe soon anyway). :-)
>>>
>>> In the case of Sybase, we virtually see nothing of PB being used. :-(
>
>


Chris Pollach Posted on 2011-12-23 17:29:44.0Z
From: "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups: sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
References: <4e94759e$1@forums-1-dub> <4eb9ac5b.9dc.1681692777@sybase.com> <4eba7462$1@forums-1-dub> <96clb7l2kqi0jt4347t14cfskofahmtas4@4ax.com> <4ef0c417@forums-1-dub> <4ef4b562$1@forums-1-dub>
Subject: Re: Eat Your Own Dog Food
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SQL Anywhere team ... Waterloo, Ontario - Canadian, eh! :-)

--
Regards ... Chris
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Trevor Holyoak" <trevorh@uuinsurance.com> wrote in message
news:4ef4b562$1@forums-1-dub...
> I've thought it very interesting that the SQL Anywhere team has made the
> effort necessary to make it work with Wordpress for their external blog
> site.
>
> - Trevor
>
> On 12/20/2011 10:21 AM, Roland Smith [TeamSybase] wrote:
>> One could argue that the reason PowerBuilder is not suitable for external
>> web applications is because nobody inside Sybase is attempting to use it
>> for
>> that purpose.
>>
>> PowerBuilder made a big leap forward functionality-wise in version 5
>> because
>> the PFC developers were working internally telling the PB development
>> team
>> what was needed and giving them instant feedback.
>>
>> Sybase needs the same thing again if they really want to see PowerBuilder
>> be
>> suitable for real web development. They need a group of experienced
>> PowerBuilder developers who also have some web developmment experience in
>> other languages who are tasked with developing an external facing web
>> application in PowerBuilder and are given direct access to the PB
>> development team and the authority needed so that the PB development team
>> will make the required changes.
>>
>> I would suggest the bug/enhancement tracking system as a good candidate
>> for
>> this purpose.
>>
>> "Dave Fish [Sybase]"<n0Spam__dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message
>> news:96clb7l2kqi0jt4347t14cfskofahmtas4@4ax.com...
>>> PowerBuilder is used for several internal systems at Sybase. We've
>>> never made a secret of the fact that PowerBuilder isn't suited for
>>> external web applications due to its browser restrictions. That's why
>>> customer facing web applications don't use PowerBuilder.
>>>
>>> On 9 Nov 2011 04:38:58 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> That's only one small place where Oracle does not use its own tools
>>>> (hey
>>>> they could be buying Adobe soon anyway). :-)
>>>>
>>>> In the case of Sybase, we virtually see nothing of PB being used. :-(
>>
>>