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New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups

46 posts in ,  FoxProCrystalInternet ServerGeneralDelphidotNetDelphiDBIClipperJavaFrenchAnnouncements.NET AEP Last posting was on 2012-08-28 22:54:32.0Z
Mike Hagman Posted on 2012-08-02 20:12:48.0Z
From: "Mike Hagman" <mike.hagman@sybase.com>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:12:48 -0600
Lines: 1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Importance: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.101
Message-ID: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 2 Aug 2012 13:12:37 -0700, 10.6.193.101
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:843 Advantage.Announcements:985 Advantage.Clipper:4568 Advantage.Crystal:1109 Advantage.DBI:133 Advantage.Delphi:25915 Advantage.DelphidotNet:152 Advantage.dotnet:2284 Advantage.FoxPro:399 Advantage.French:23 Advantage.General:13417 Advantage.Internet_Server:876 Advantage.Java:389
Article PK: 1104120

The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
OR
Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/

On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so they
can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to post new
messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.

We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
The Advantage Team


Joachim Höhne Posted on 2012-08-21 15:29:30.0Z
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:29:30 +0200
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Joachim_H=F6hne?= <memoire@gmx.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 88.153.134.178
Message-ID: <5033a978$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 21 Aug 2012 08:30:00 -0700, 88.153.134.178
Lines: 16
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:871 Advantage.Announcements:1016 Advantage.Clipper:4583 Advantage.Crystal:1125 Advantage.DBI:148 Advantage.Delphi:25935 Advantage.DelphidotNet:167 Advantage.dotnet:2299 Advantage.FoxPro:414 Advantage.French:38 Advantage.General:13449 Advantage.Internet_Server:891 Advantage.Java:404
Article PK: 1103516

Am 02.08.2012 22:12, schrieb Mike Hagman:

> The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
> instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum

Forum, what forum? That is a blog!

You _can_ make good forums, like the german Delphi Praxis forum
(http://www.delphipraxis.net/forum.php). But what I see in
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum is only some strange sort of
blog, where the question is the blog entry and the answers are the comments.


--
Joachim


Dirk (Belgium) Posted on 2012-08-20 08:21:53.0Z
From: "Dirk (Belgium)" <dirk.dot.herijgers@pbprojects.dot.be>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Followup-To: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
User-Agent: XanaNews/1.18.1.6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.165.106.225
Message-ID: <5031f3a1$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Date: 20 Aug 2012 01:21:53 -0700
X-Trace: 20 Aug 2012 01:21:53 -0700, 81.165.106.225
Lines: 30
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:870 Advantage.Announcements:1015 Advantage.Clipper:4582 Advantage.Crystal:1124 Advantage.DBI:147 Advantage.Delphi:25934 Advantage.DelphidotNet:166 Advantage.dotnet:2298 Advantage.FoxPro:413 Advantage.French:37 Advantage.General:13444 Advantage.Internet_Server:890 Advantage.Java:403
Article PK: 1103517

@ADS,

I also believe that a NG is a better way than a forum.
Only one-time-users loves forums, but users who read messages on a
daily base likes NG !!! Also, with a NG, there are more replies etc...
I like it this way !!! Do not change to forums !!!

Dirk
=========

Mike Hagman wrote:

> The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this
> forum instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum OR
> Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/
>
> On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so
> they can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to
> post new messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.
>
> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team

--


Ian Branch Posted on 2012-08-02 20:25:32.0Z
From: "Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Followup-To: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
User-Agent: XanaNews/1.19.1.368 (x86; Portable ISpell)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.167.126.128
Message-ID: <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Date: 2 Aug 2012 13:25:32 -0700
X-Trace: 2 Aug 2012 13:25:32 -0700, 59.167.126.128
Lines: 29
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:844 Advantage.Announcements:986 Advantage.Clipper:4569 Advantage.Crystal:1110 Advantage.DBI:134 Advantage.Delphi:25916 Advantage.DelphidotNet:153 Advantage.dotnet:2285 Advantage.FoxPro:400 Advantage.French:24 Advantage.General:13418 Advantage.Internet_Server:877 Advantage.Java:390
Article PK: 1104127


>
> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team

Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are NOT more convenient!

Consider. With one application, in my case Xananews, and at one
glance, I can see all the NGs from Advantage to Xananews and what
subjects have new messages and how many.

Right now, as I write this message, I can see 10 NGs, of which 6 have
new messages, of which 4 have a response to a subject I am
participating/interested specifically in.

Please tell me how I do that in a browser?????

What benefit do you see/believe Forums bring to the User?

IMHO this move is another in a trend away from the interests of the
User and therefroe a bad move.

At the very least why can't you do as Dev Express has and link the two?
Forum & NG.

Regards,

Ian


Karl Faller Posted on 2012-08-02 20:39:04.0Z
From: Karl Faller <k.faller_withoutthat_@onlinehome.de>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:39:04 +0200
Message-ID: <89pl18prkip242fv4omfga3d4n3cl97hht@4ax.com>
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 178.26.34.85
X-Trace: 2 Aug 2012 13:38:56 -0700, 178.26.34.85
Lines: 15
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:845
Article PK: 1104122

On 2 Aug 2012 13:25:32 -0700, "Ian Branch"

<branch_at_celestial_com_au> wrote:

>>
>> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>> The Advantage Team
>
>Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>They are NOT more convenient!

+1
Apart from using Agent instead of Xana <g> - i follow 10x the content
in the time i look for one thread on this dreaded i-net fora....

Karl


Joachim Duerr (ADS) Posted on 2012-08-02 21:30:01.0Z
From: "Joachim Duerr (ADS)" <jojo.duerr@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <89pl18prkip242fv4omfga3d4n3cl97hht@4ax.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 23:30:01 +0200
User-Agent: XanaNews/1.19.1.320
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 78.52.46.136
Message-ID: <501af152$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 2 Aug 2012 14:29:54 -0700, 78.52.46.136
Lines: 14
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:846
Article PK: 1104121


Karl Faller wrote:

>+1
>Apart from using Agent instead of Xana <g> - i follow 10x the content
>in the time i look for one thread on this dreaded i-net fora....

another +1
I can ignore a complete thread...with web based forums you have to
re-read every post multiple times very day...

--
Joachim Duerr, Advantage Presales

ADS books available on http://pocketguide.jd-engineering.de


Günter Kieninger Posted on 2012-08-03 07:59:54.0Z
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 09:59:54 +0200
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: Virtual Access Open Source http://www.virtual-access.org/
Organization: My Company
Message-ID: <VA.00000093.42abcd5a@mgm.at>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
From: Günter Kieninger <g.kieninger@mgm.at>
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <89pl18prkip242fv4omfga3d4n3cl97hht@4ax.com> <501af152$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.99.177.218
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 00:59:47 -0700, 62.99.177.218
Lines: 4
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:847
Article PK: 1104124

Here also +1

First look at the forum makes me scary ...


"Armin Back" <armin.back No Spam Posted on 2012-08-03 08:22:23.0Z
From: "Armin Back" <armin.back No Spam @engeldataconcept.de>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:22:23 +0200
Lines: 16
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.167.129.180
Message-ID: <501b8a33@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 01:22:11 -0700, 87.167.129.180
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:848
Article PK: 1104123


>> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>> The Advantage Team
>
> Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> They are NOT more convenient!

another +1

BTW, IMO all is said about the advantages of newsgroups and shouldn't be
ignored!

Regards,

Armin


Mark Jacobs Posted on 2012-08-03 09:02:41.0Z
From: "Mark Jacobs" <markj@critical.co.uk>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:02:41 +0100
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512
NNTP-Posting-Host: 93.157.216.162
Message-ID: <501b93a6@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 02:02:30 -0700, 93.157.216.162
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:849
Article PK: 1104125

I agree. I do not understand the rationale behind a move to browser-only forums instead of the highly useful and fast newsgroup paradigm. Please explain why you have done this.
--
~_~
Mark Jacobs


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-03 15:53:37.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:53:37 -0600
Lines: 2
Organization: Sybase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Importance: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.219
Message-ID: <501bf3f5$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 08:53:25 -0700, 10.6.193.219
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:856
Article PK: 1104128

Bah! Sorry for the cross posting ... I meant to respond in this group. You
can see that I am not a newsgroup power user.

I'm sure others can give better feedback on this, but I'll give a shot at
answering some of these.

"Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au> wrote in message
news:501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
>>
>> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>> The Advantage Team
>
> Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> They are NOT more convenient!
>
> Consider. With one application, in my case Xananews, and at one
> glance, I can see all the NGs from Advantage to Xananews and what
> subjects have new messages and how many.
>
> Right now, as I write this message, I can see 10 NGs, of which 6 have
> new messages, of which 4 have a response to a subject I am
> participating/interested specifically in.
>
> Please tell me how I do that in a browser?????

I think you should still be able to use your RSS reader to view new
messages. Set up an RSS feed to the the tags you are interested in. For
example (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/tags/delphi/?type=rss).
The new messages will show up in your reader. Or you can set up a generic
feed for all new questions. Then the view should be very similar to what
you are seeing now. There will be different tags for different subjects
(and almost certainly one tag related to each existing newsgroup). So you
should be able to still use Xananews to see new messages. You can have the
10 different feeds you are interested in and see exactly which ones have new
activity at a glance.

>
> What benefit do you see/believe Forums bring to the User?

I am pretty excited about the new forums; I think there a number of
benefits.

Simpler Access: It is simpler to get to and find. Many of our new users
are not even aware of the newsgroups. They have never used newsgroups,
don't know what a news reader is, and quite possibly never will (I can
safely say that here because those people will never read this ;). With a
link to a web forum, it takes them one click from the devzone and they are
there.

Searchable: The posts on the web forum are searchable via the major search
engines, new users may well end up at the site via a google search. Our
newsgroups are not currently searchable by Google (or other search engines),
so nobody finds the thousands of answers that already exist. In fact, I
have been using these newsgroups (and others) for about a hundred years
(well starting last century anyway) and still don't know how to search for
anything in them. I can search via my local reader for posts that have been
downloaded to my workstation but it is harder to find older messages. I'm
sure there are good ways to search newsgroups, but I haven't found them (I'm
not sure what that says about my abilities but I am probably average and
thus may be representative of a large group of people out there).

No Special Software Needed: I don't need to install readers on my machines
at home or my iOS devices to view the forum. All I need is a browser, which
exists on every device I use.

Some People Have No NewsgroupAccess: Some companies don't even allow access
to many newsgroups. Well ... I know that at least two companies fall in
this category for sure. My company, Sybase, by default, turns off access to
all newsgroups. I simply can't get to them. So if a product uses
newsgroups for support, I am pretty much out of luck. I have to open a
support ticket and (fingers crossed) they may or may not give me access. I
don't have that problem with a web forum. And about three years ago SAP
acquired Sybase. Two days ago I tried to get to our current Advantage
newsgroups from the SAP network (which we will be switching to in about 40
days). And I couldn't reach the Advantage newsgroups. In other words, I
won't be able to reach my own newsgroups from my own company's network in
the very near future unless I figure out who to talk to.

More Support from Advantage Team Members: To be honest, I have never once
read a newsgroup at home in my entire life. Therefore, I have never
answered an Advantage support question on those newsgroups on my own time in
the many years I have worked here. I do, however, answer questions on my
own time on Stackoverflow
(http://stackoverflow.com/users/23478/mark-wilkins). Our new web forum is
modeled after that site (which happens to be one of the more popular
technical question-and-answer sites on the web). Because of the simpler
access, I expect that I will browse the Advantage forums in the evenings or
mornings before sometimes and will answer questions when I can. In other
words, you will be getting more time from at least one developer.


>
> IMHO this move is another in a trend away from the interests of the
> User and therefroe a bad move.

I apologize for giving that impression. That definitely was not our intent;
our very real belief is that it would make things much easier to use and
provide better support.

And I can't help but ask about the phrase "another in a trend". One of our
strengths (I think) has always been that we try to help out our customers
and provide great support. Your comment definitely makes it sound as if you
disagree. Please let us know about the other things; I can't promise
anything, but it would be useful for us to know which directions we are
heading that are causing the problems.

>
> At the very least why can't you do as Dev Express has and link the two?
> Forum & NG.

I can't comment on this part; I don't know what would be necessary to make
this happen.

Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-03 15:51:25.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:51:25 -0600
Lines: 2
Organization: Sybase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Importance: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.219
Message-ID: <501bf371$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 08:51:13 -0700, 10.6.193.219
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:855
Article PK: 1104134

I'm sure others can give better feedback on this, but I'll give a shot at
answering some of these.

"Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au> wrote in message
news:501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
>>
>> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>> The Advantage Team
>
> Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> They are NOT more convenient!
>
> Consider. With one application, in my case Xananews, and at one
> glance, I can see all the NGs from Advantage to Xananews and what
> subjects have new messages and how many.
>
> Right now, as I write this message, I can see 10 NGs, of which 6 have
> new messages, of which 4 have a response to a subject I am
> participating/interested specifically in.
>
> Please tell me how I do that in a browser?????

I think you should still be able to use your RSS reader to view new
messages. Set up an RSS feed to the the tags you are interested in. For
example (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/tags/delphi/?type=rss).
The new messages will show up in your reader. Or you can set up a generic
feed for all new questions. Then the view should be very similar to what
you are seeing now. There will be different tags for different subjects
(and almost certainly one tag related to each existing newsgroup). So you
should be able to still use Xananews to see new messages. You can have the
10 different feeds you are interested in and see exactly which ones have new
activity at a glance.

>
> What benefit do you see/believe Forums bring to the User?

I am pretty excited about the new forums; I think there a number of
benefits.

Simpler Access: It is simpler to get to and find. Many of our new users
are not even aware of the newsgroups. They have never used newsgroups,
don't know what a news reader is, and quite possibly never will (I can
safely say that here because those people will never read this ;). With a
link to a web forum, it takes them one click from the devzone and they are
there.

Searchable: The posts on the web forum are searchable via the major search
engines, new users may well end up at the site via a google search. Our
newsgroups are not currently searchable by Google (or other search engines),
so nobody finds the thousands of answers that already exist. In fact, I
have been using these newsgroups (and others) for about a hundred years
(well starting last century anyway) and still don't know how to search for
anything in them. I can search via my local reader for posts that have been
downloaded to my workstation but it is harder to find older messages. I'm
sure there are good ways to search newsgroups, but I haven't found them (I'm
not sure what that says about my abilities but I am probably average and
thus may be representative of a large group of people out there).

No Special Software Needed: I don't need to install readers on my machines
at home or my iOS devices to view the forum. All I need is a browser, which
exists on every device I use.

Some People Have No NewsgroupAccess: Some companies don't even allow access
to many newsgroups. Well ... I know that at least two companies fall in
this category for sure. My company, Sybase, by default, turns off access to
all newsgroups. I simply can't get to them. So if a product uses
newsgroups for support, I am pretty much out of luck. I have to open a
support ticket and (fingers crossed) they may or may not give me access. I
don't have that problem with a web forum. And about three years ago SAP
acquired Sybase. Two days ago I tried to get to our current Advantage
newsgroups from the SAP network (which we will be switching to in about 40
days). And I couldn't reach the Advantage newsgroups. In other words, I
won't be able to reach my own newsgroups from my own company's network in
the very near future unless I figure out who to talk to.

More Support from Advantage Team Members: To be honest, I have never once
read a newsgroup at home in my entire life. Therefore, I have never
answered an Advantage support question on those newsgroups on my own time in
the many years I have worked here. I do, however, answer questions on my
own time on Stackoverflow
(http://stackoverflow.com/users/23478/mark-wilkins). Our new web forum is
modeled after that site (which happens to be one of the more popular
technical question-and-answer sites on the web). Because of the simpler
access, I expect that I will browse the Advantage forums in the evenings or
mornings before sometimes and will answer questions when I can. In other
words, you will be getting more time from at least one developer.


>
> IMHO this move is another in a trend away from the interests of the
> User and therefroe a bad move.

I apologize for giving that impression. That definitely was not our intent;
our very real belief is that it would make things much easier to use and
provide better support.

And I can't help but ask about the phrase "another in a trend". One of our
strengths (I think) has always been that we try to help out our customers
and provide great support. Your comment definitely makes it sound as if you
disagree. Please let us know about the other things; I can't promise
anything, but it would be useful for us to know which directions we are
heading that are causing the problems.

>
> At the very least why can't you do as Dev Express has and link the two?
> Forum & NG.

I can't comment on this part; I don't know what would be necessary to make
this happen.

Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D


Joachim Duerr (ADS) Posted on 2012-08-04 21:11:59.0Z
From: "Joachim Duerr (ADS)" <jojo.duerr@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501bf371$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <eb6c8ae9a7cc8cf3f9ec48ee0a6@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 23:11:59 +0200
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Message-ID: <501d9012$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 4 Aug 2012 14:11:46 -0700, 78.52.43.84
Lines: 17
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:860
Article PK: 1104137


Peter Funk (ADS) wrote:

>
>Well said Mark. All good points. I too look forward to the new
>browser based forum.
>
>Being able to search the entire forum history from the forum itself
>not to mention any major search engine is huge. I regularly search
>the web and find answers on forums like stack overflow, etc. Having
>our forum in the same space is a great benefit for our customers.

why not adding a web interface to the newsgroup?

--
Joachim Duerr, Advantage Presales

ADS books available on http://pocketguide.jd-engineering.de


Mark Jacobs Posted on 2012-08-03 09:04:13.0Z
From: "Mark Jacobs" <markj@critical.co.uk>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:04:13 +0100
Lines: 5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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Message-ID: <501b9402@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 02:04:02 -0700, 93.157.216.162
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:987
Article PK: 1105619

I agree. I do not understand the rationale behind a move to browser-only forums instead of the highly useful and fast newsgroup paradigm. Please explain why you have done this.
--
~_~
Mark Jacobs


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-03 21:45:33.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 15:45:33 -0600
Lines: 2
Organization: Sybase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.219
Message-ID: <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 14:45:20 -0700, 10.6.193.219
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:996
Article PK: 1105623

Ach - I am going to make one more attempt to get this response of mine in
the correct newsgroup.


I'm sure others can give better feedback on this, but I'll give a shot at
answering some of these inline below.

"Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au> wrote in message
news:501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
>>
>> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>> The Advantage Team
>
> Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> They are NOT more convenient!
>
> Consider. With one application, in my case Xananews, and at one
> glance, I can see all the NGs from Advantage to Xananews and what
> subjects have new messages and how many.
>
> Right now, as I write this message, I can see 10 NGs, of which 6 have
> new messages, of which 4 have a response to a subject I am
> participating/interested specifically in.
>
> Please tell me how I do that in a browser?????

I think you should still be able to use your RSS reader to view new
messages. Set up an RSS feed to the the tags you are interested in. For
example (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/tags/delphi/?type=rss).
The new messages will show up in your reader. Or you can set up a generic
feed for all new questions. Then the view should be very similar to what
you are seeing now. There will be different tags for different subjects
(and almost certainly one tag related to each existing newsgroup). So you
should be able to still use Xananews to see new messages. You can have the
10 different feeds you are interested in and see exactly which ones have new
activity at a glance.

>
> What benefit do you see/believe Forums bring to the User?

I am pretty excited about the new forums; I think there a number of
benefits.

Simpler Access: It is simpler to get to and find. Many of our new users
are not even aware of the newsgroups. They have never used newsgroups,
don't know what a news reader is, and quite possibly never will (I can
safely say that here because those people will never read this ;). With a
link to a web forum, it takes them one click from the devzone and they are
there.

Searchable: The posts on the web forum are searchable via the major search
engines, new users may well end up at the site via a google search. Our
newsgroups are not currently searchable by Google (or other search engines),
so nobody finds the thousands of answers that already exist. In fact, I
have been using these newsgroups (and others) for about a hundred years
(well starting last century anyway) and still don't know how to search for
anything in them. I can search via my local reader for posts that have been
downloaded to my workstation but it is harder to find older messages. I'm
sure there are good ways to search newsgroups, but I haven't found them (I'm
not sure what that says about my abilities but I am probably average and
thus may be representative of a large group of people out there).

No Special Software Needed: I don't need to install readers on my machines
at home or my iOS devices to view the forum. All I need is a browser, which
exists on every device I use.

Some People Have No NewsgroupAccess: Some companies don't even allow access
to many newsgroups. Well ... I know that at least two companies fall in
this category for sure. My company, Sybase, by default, turns off access to
all newsgroups. I simply can't get to them. So if a product uses
newsgroups for support, I am pretty much out of luck. I have to open a
support ticket and (fingers crossed) they may or may not give me access. I
don't have that problem with a web forum. And about three years ago SAP
acquired Sybase. Two days ago I tried to get to our current Advantage
newsgroups from the SAP network (which we will be switching to in about 40
days). And I couldn't reach the Advantage newsgroups. In other words, I
won't be able to reach my own newsgroups from my own company's network in
the very near future unless I figure out who to talk to.

More Support from Advantage Team Members: To be honest, I have never once
read a newsgroup at home in my entire life. Therefore, I have never
answered an Advantage support question on those newsgroups on my own time in
the many years I have worked here. I do, however, answer questions on my
own time on Stackoverflow
(http://stackoverflow.com/users/23478/mark-wilkins). Our new web forum is
modeled after that site (which happens to be one of the more popular
technical question-and-answer sites on the web). Because of the simpler
access, I expect that I will browse the Advantage forums in the evenings or
mornings before sometimes and will answer questions when I can. In other
words, you will be getting more time from at least one developer.


>
> IMHO this move is another in a trend away from the interests of the
> User and therefroe a bad move.

I apologize for giving that impression. That definitely was not our intent;
our very real belief is that it would make things much easier to use and
provide better support.

And I can't help but ask about the phrase "another in a trend". One of our
strengths (I think) has always been that we try to help out our customers
and provide great support. Your comment definitely makes it sound as if you
disagree. Please let us know about the other things; I can't promise
anything, but it would be useful for us to know which directions we are
heading that are causing the problems.

>
> At the very least why can't you do as Dev Express has and link the two?
> Forum & NG.

I can't comment on this part; I don't know what would be necessary to make
this happen.

Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D


Ian Branch Posted on 2012-08-03 23:50:32.0Z
From: "Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
User-Agent: XanaNews/1.19.1.368 (x86; Portable ISpell)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.167.126.128
Message-ID: <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Date: 3 Aug 2012 16:50:32 -0700
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 16:50:32 -0700, 59.167.126.128
Lines: 139
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:999
Article PK: 1105632

Hi Mark,

Apreciate your points. My responses follow..

Regards,

Ian

Mark Wilkins wrote:

> I'm sure others can give better feedback on this, but I'll give a
> shot at answering some of these.
>
>
> I think you should still be able to use your RSS reader to view new
> messages. Set up an RSS feed to the the tags you are interested in.
> For example
> (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/tags/delphi/?type=rss).
> The new messages will show up in your reader. Or you can set up a
> generic feed for all new questions. Then the view should be very
> similar to what you are seeing now. There will be different tags for
> different subjects (and almost certainly one tag related to each
> existing newsgroup). So you should be able to still use Xananews to
> see new messages. You can have the 10 different feeds you are
> interested in and see exactly which ones have new activity at a
> glance.

Ahh But then I still have to fire up a browser and go to the forum site
to lodge a response or raise a query

>
> I am pretty excited about the new forums; I think there a number of
> benefits.
>
> Simpler Access: It is simpler to get to and find. Many of our new
> users are not even aware of the newsgroups. They have never used
> newsgroups, don't know what a news reader is, and quite possibly
> never will (I can safely say that here because those people will
> never read this ;). With a link to a web forum, it takes them one
> click from the devzone and they are there.
>

This is a simple education issue as it is to educate them where/how to
access/use the forums.

> Searchable: The posts on the web forum are searchable via the major
> search engines, new users may well end up at the site via a google
> search. Our newsgroups are not currently searchable by Google (or
> other search engines), so nobody finds the thousands of answers that
> already exist. In fact, I have been using these newsgroups (and
> others) for about a hundred years (well starting last century anyway)
> and still don't know how to search for anything in them. I can
> search via my local reader for posts that have been downloaded to my
> workstation but it is harder to find older messages. I'm sure there
> are good ways to search newsgroups, but I haven't found them (I'm not
> sure what that says about my abilities but I am probably average and
> thus may be representative of a large group of people out there).
>

Right now I can Search ALL the Advantrage sub NGs I am looking at, not
just the one I am replying in att.

> No Special Software Needed: I don't need to install readers on my
> machines at home or my iOS devices to view the forum. All I need is
> a browser, which exists on every device I use.
>

I will grant you that one. :-) Wait! Didn't you mention something
about an RSS reader earlier? Isn't that another piece of software that
you are suggesting to support the Forum?


> Some People Have No NewsgroupAccess: Some companies don't even allow
> access to many newsgroups. Well ... I know that at least two
> companies fall in this category for sure. My company, Sybase, by
> default, turns off access to all newsgroups. I simply can't get to
> them. So if a product uses newsgroups for support, I am pretty much
> out of luck. I have to open a support ticket and (fingers crossed)
> they may or may not give me access. I don't have that problem with a
> web forum. And about three years ago SAP acquired Sybase. Two days
> ago I tried to get to our current Advantage newsgroups from the SAP
> network (which we will be switching to in about 40 days). And I
> couldn't reach the Advantage newsgroups. In other words, I won't be
> able to reach my own newsgroups from my own company's network in the
> very near future unless I figure out who to talk to.
>

Again, I will grant you that one, I too have that issue with my
employer.

> More Support from Advantage Team Members: To be honest, I have never
> once read a newsgroup at home in my entire life. Therefore, I have
> never answered an Advantage support question on those newsgroups on
> my own time in the many years I have worked here. I do, however,
> answer questions on my own time on Stackoverflow
> (http://stackoverflow.com/users/23478/mark-wilkins). Our new web
> forum is modeled after that site (which happens to be one of the more
> popular technical question-and-answer sites on the web). Because of
> the simpler access, I expect that I will browse the Advantage forums
> in the evenings or mornings before sometimes and will answer
> questions when I can. In other words, you will be getting more time
> from at least one developer.
>

Don't understand this one. Are you ascerting that more 'support'
people frequent Forums than NGs? How can you say that if the ADS Forum
has only just started? Given the amount of time that this NG has been
around and the level of support that I have received from it over the
years I am quite please withthe support/participation from ADS here.

>
> I apologize for giving that impression. That definitely was not our
> intent; our very real belief is that it would make things much easier
> to use and provide better support.
>

And I respect that belief/perception.

> And I can't help but ask about the phrase "another in a trend". One
> of our strengths (I think) has always been that we try to help out
> our customers and provide great support. Your comment definitely
> makes it sound as if you disagree. Please let us know about the
> other things; I can't promise anything, but it would be useful for us
> to know which directions we are heading that are causing the problems.
>

Apologies - This was an expression of general dissappointment of the
trend by many NG operators now moving to Forums.

> >
>
> I can't comment on this part; I don't know what would be necessary to
> make this happen.
>

Can it be looked at?


P.S. Are we having fun yet?


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-04 00:32:48.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:32:48 -0600
Lines: 3
Organization: Sybase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.219
Message-ID: <501c6da4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 17:32:36 -0700, 10.6.193.219
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:1000
Article PK: 1105637

Thanks for the responses. What you say makes sense. And I appreciate that
you are taking the time to explain; it helps me understand the issues. I
should point out that while I think the web forum is a great idea and am all
for it, I have no time invested in it and had basically nothing to do with
its creation other than playing around with the beta and thinking it was
excellent. In other words I like the end result and am excited about it but
since I am not invested in it, you can throw stones at me and I won't mind
and will try not to be too defensive :)

I'll try to respond to the responses below (which admittedly is a lot easier
here than in a web forum). For the most part, though, I don't really have
anything new to add. I think we understand each other pretty well at this
point. I *think* that it comes down somewhat to simple preference and
working style. Each persons' work flow may lend itself better to one forum
style over the other. I was just a bit surprised at how many people
instantly said they hated it and was hoping to understand why.

"Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au> wrote in message
news:501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
> Hi Mark,
>
> Apreciate your points. My responses follow..
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
> Mark Wilkins wrote:
>
>> I'm sure others can give better feedback on this, but I'll give a
>> shot at answering some of these.
>>
>>
>> I think you should still be able to use your RSS reader to view new
>> messages. Set up an RSS feed to the the tags you are interested in.
>> For example
>> (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/tags/delphi/?type=rss).
>> The new messages will show up in your reader. Or you can set up a
>> generic feed for all new questions. Then the view should be very
>> similar to what you are seeing now. There will be different tags for
>> different subjects (and almost certainly one tag related to each
>> existing newsgroup). So you should be able to still use Xananews to
>> see new messages. You can have the 10 different feeds you are
>> interested in and see exactly which ones have new activity at a
>> glance.
>
> Ahh But then I still have to fire up a browser and go to the forum site
> to lodge a response or raise a query

Yes, this is true. I don't believe you can post a response from an RSS
reader. I always have Chrome running on my PC, so it a click from one of
those links takes only 2 seconds for me. But I can see that it could be a
hassle for those who don't have their default browser open (and starting IE
up from scratch would definitely take longer). My assumptions that others
work like I do is probably not correct. I always have a browser open (three
instances of IE and two instances of Chrome at the moment, which is not
abnormal). So for me, it is not a problem were I to use that mechanism.

On the other hand (a point you did not mention), if one doesn't like editing
in a browser, then that is a downside for the web forums. Editing in some
newsreaders can be nicer with more "documentation" support features. On the
other other hand, I think the browser style editing and display gives a few
more benefits with the ability to indent code, use bullets in a consistent
fashion, etc.

>
>>
>> I am pretty excited about the new forums; I think there a number of
>> benefits.
>>
>> Simpler Access: It is simpler to get to and find. Many of our new
>> users are not even aware of the newsgroups. They have never used
>> newsgroups, don't know what a news reader is, and quite possibly
>> never will (I can safely say that here because those people will
>> never read this ;). With a link to a web forum, it takes them one
>> click from the devzone and they are there.
>>
>
> This is a simple education issue as it is to educate them where/how to
> access/use the forums.

That's probably true, although I am sometimes surprised at how hard it is to
get someone to use a new piece of software. I often fall into that
category, so I shouldn't be too surprised.

>
>> Searchable: The posts on the web forum are searchable via the major
>> search engines, new users may well end up at the site via a google
>> search. Our newsgroups are not currently searchable by Google (or
>> other search engines), so nobody finds the thousands of answers that
>> already exist. In fact, I have been using these newsgroups (and
>> others) for about a hundred years (well starting last century anyway)
>> and still don't know how to search for anything in them. I can
>> search via my local reader for posts that have been downloaded to my
>> workstation but it is harder to find older messages. I'm sure there
>> are good ways to search newsgroups, but I haven't found them (I'm not
>> sure what that says about my abilities but I am probably average and
>> thus may be representative of a large group of people out there).
>>
>
> Right now I can Search ALL the Advantrage sub NGs I am looking at, not
> just the one I am replying in att.

That would be nice; I have never succeeded with a search in a newsreader.
Of course, right now I am using Microsoft Live Mail or some such thing. I
have used Omea, RSS Bandit and I think others in the past and never had much
joy. I do searches in Google for almost everything, so that is why I prefer
the newsgroups being searchable there.

>
>> No Special Software Needed: I don't need to install readers on my
>> machines at home or my iOS devices to view the forum. All I need is
>> a browser, which exists on every device I use.
>>
>
> I will grant you that one. :-) Wait! Didn't you mention something
> about an RSS reader earlier? Isn't that another piece of software that
> you are suggesting to support the Forum?

I was just trying to say that you don't have to install anything. However,
if someone likes using RSS feed readers, they can continue to do so. So
many more options :)

>
>
>> Some People Have No NewsgroupAccess: Some companies don't even allow
>> access to many newsgroups. Well ... I know that at least two
>> companies fall in this category for sure. My company, Sybase, by
>> default, turns off access to all newsgroups. I simply can't get to
>> them. So if a product uses newsgroups for support, I am pretty much
>> out of luck. I have to open a support ticket and (fingers crossed)
>> they may or may not give me access. I don't have that problem with a
>> web forum. And about three years ago SAP acquired Sybase. Two days
>> ago I tried to get to our current Advantage newsgroups from the SAP
>> network (which we will be switching to in about 40 days). And I
>> couldn't reach the Advantage newsgroups. In other words, I won't be
>> able to reach my own newsgroups from my own company's network in the
>> very near future unless I figure out who to talk to.
>>
>
> Again, I will grant you that one, I too have that issue with my
> employer.
>
>> More Support from Advantage Team Members: To be honest, I have never
>> once read a newsgroup at home in my entire life. Therefore, I have
>> never answered an Advantage support question on those newsgroups on
>> my own time in the many years I have worked here. I do, however,
>> answer questions on my own time on Stackoverflow
>> (http://stackoverflow.com/users/23478/mark-wilkins). Our new web
>> forum is modeled after that site (which happens to be one of the more
>> popular technical question-and-answer sites on the web). Because of
>> the simpler access, I expect that I will browse the Advantage forums
>> in the evenings or mornings before sometimes and will answer
>> questions when I can. In other words, you will be getting more time
>> from at least one developer.
>>
>
> Don't understand this one. Are you ascerting that more 'support'
> people frequent Forums than NGs? How can you say that if the ADS Forum
> has only just started? Given the amount of time that this NG has been
> around and the level of support that I have received from it over the
> years I am quite please withthe support/participation from ADS here.
>

No - all I was saying is that there is a chance that I will monitor the
forums some in my off time. I never did monitor newsgroups at home because
I couldn't reach them. The last sentence of the paragraph was the critical
one ("from at least one developer" [me]). I can't speak for the others.
Although I already did see one Advantage team member post a response at a
time that must have been about 8pm on Friday for his time. But if
stackoverflow.com is any indicator, that style of Q&A forum is a bit more
popular than newsgroups; I am not aware of any newsgroup that ever generated
even half the interest that stackoverflow generates. But you are correct;
it's brand new, so it's all a guess at this point.

>>
>> I apologize for giving that impression. That definitely was not our
>> intent; our very real belief is that it would make things much easier
>> to use and provide better support.
>>
>
> And I respect that belief/perception.
>
>> And I can't help but ask about the phrase "another in a trend". One
>> of our strengths (I think) has always been that we try to help out
>> our customers and provide great support. Your comment definitely
>> makes it sound as if you disagree. Please let us know about the
>> other things; I can't promise anything, but it would be useful for us
>> to know which directions we are heading that are causing the problems.
>>
>
> Apologies - This was an expression of general dissappointment of the
> trend by many NG operators now moving to Forums.
>

Ah - I see. Thanks.

>> >
>>
>> I can't comment on this part; I don't know what would be necessary to
>> make this happen.
>>
>
> Can it be looked at?
>

We will discuss it here and see what kind of options there are.

>
> P.S. Are we having fun yet?

Indeed. I like your points and (again) the fact that you explained your
thinking. It is much more useful than someone just saying they don't like
something.

Mark


Howard Fox Posted on 2012-08-08 22:03:55.0Z
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 18:03:55 -0400
From: Howard Fox <hafox@cfl.rr.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c6da4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501c6da4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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Article PK: 1105625

Mark,

If nothing else, I, personally, really appreciate the fact that you (at
least - not many other R&D folks have chimed in) aren't just ignoring
those who have raised concerns. As a very new ADS user, I've so far
found that to be a hallmark of your tech support and it's made a huge
difference in my early adoption of the software.

Since my original post (about the NGs), I've spent a little time on the
new forums, and I have to admit, with a little poking around in the
inner workings, it was pretty straight-forward to find things. One thing
that I couldn't figure out, however, was how to reply specifically to an
answer to my own question. I finally "add(ed) a comment". Is that what I
should have done, or do you know of another method? Also, what's up with
the inability of certain users to add Tags?

Howard Fox

On 8/3/2012 8:32 PM, Mark Wilkins wrote:
> Thanks for the responses. What you say makes sense. And I appreciate
> that you are taking the time to explain; it helps me understand the
> issues. I should point out that while I think the web forum is a great
> idea and am all for it, I have no time invested in it and had basically
> nothing to do with its creation other than playing around with the beta
> and thinking it was excellent. In other words I like the end result and
> am excited about it but since I am not invested in it, you can throw
> stones at me and I won't mind and will try not to be too defensive :)
>
> I'll try to respond to the responses below (which admittedly is a lot
> easier here than in a web forum). For the most part, though, I don't
> really have anything new to add. I think we understand each other
> pretty well at this point. I *think* that it comes down somewhat to
> simple preference and working style. Each persons' work flow may lend
> itself better to one forum style over the other. I was just a bit
> surprised at how many people instantly said they hated it and was hoping
> to understand why.
>
>
> "Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au> wrote in message
> news:501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Apreciate your points. My responses follow..
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> Mark Wilkins wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sure others can give better feedback on this, but I'll give a
>>> shot at answering some of these.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you should still be able to use your RSS reader to view new
>>> messages. Set up an RSS feed to the the tags you are interested in.
>>> For example
>>> (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/tags/delphi/?type=rss).
>>> The new messages will show up in your reader. Or you can set up a
>>> generic feed for all new questions. Then the view should be very
>>> similar to what you are seeing now. There will be different tags for
>>> different subjects (and almost certainly one tag related to each
>>> existing newsgroup). So you should be able to still use Xananews to
>>> see new messages. You can have the 10 different feeds you are
>>> interested in and see exactly which ones have new activity at a
>>> glance.
>>
>> Ahh But then I still have to fire up a browser and go to the forum site
>> to lodge a response or raise a query
>
> Yes, this is true. I don't believe you can post a response from an RSS
> reader. I always have Chrome running on my PC, so it a click from one
> of those links takes only 2 seconds for me. But I can see that it could
> be a hassle for those who don't have their default browser open (and
> starting IE up from scratch would definitely take longer). My
> assumptions that others work like I do is probably not correct. I
> always have a browser open (three instances of IE and two instances of
> Chrome at the moment, which is not abnormal). So for me, it is not a
> problem were I to use that mechanism.
>
> On the other hand (a point you did not mention), if one doesn't like
> editing in a browser, then that is a downside for the web forums.
> Editing in some newsreaders can be nicer with more "documentation"
> support features. On the other other hand, I think the browser style
> editing and display gives a few more benefits with the ability to indent
> code, use bullets in a consistent fashion, etc.
>
>>
>>>
>>> I am pretty excited about the new forums; I think there a number of
>>> benefits.
>>>
>>> Simpler Access: It is simpler to get to and find. Many of our new
>>> users are not even aware of the newsgroups. They have never used
>>> newsgroups, don't know what a news reader is, and quite possibly
>>> never will (I can safely say that here because those people will
>>> never read this ;). With a link to a web forum, it takes them one
>>> click from the devzone and they are there.
>>>
>>
>> This is a simple education issue as it is to educate them where/how to
>> access/use the forums.
>
> That's probably true, although I am sometimes surprised at how hard it
> is to get someone to use a new piece of software. I often fall into
> that category, so I shouldn't be too surprised.
>
>>
>>> Searchable: The posts on the web forum are searchable via the major
>>> search engines, new users may well end up at the site via a google
>>> search. Our newsgroups are not currently searchable by Google (or
>>> other search engines), so nobody finds the thousands of answers that
>>> already exist. In fact, I have been using these newsgroups (and
>>> others) for about a hundred years (well starting last century anyway)
>>> and still don't know how to search for anything in them. I can
>>> search via my local reader for posts that have been downloaded to my
>>> workstation but it is harder to find older messages. I'm sure there
>>> are good ways to search newsgroups, but I haven't found them (I'm not
>>> sure what that says about my abilities but I am probably average and
>>> thus may be representative of a large group of people out there).
>>>
>>
>> Right now I can Search ALL the Advantrage sub NGs I am looking at, not
>> just the one I am replying in att.
>
> That would be nice; I have never succeeded with a search in a
> newsreader. Of course, right now I am using Microsoft Live Mail or some
> such thing. I have used Omea, RSS Bandit and I think others in the past
> and never had much joy. I do searches in Google for almost everything,
> so that is why I prefer the newsgroups being searchable there.
>
>>
>>> No Special Software Needed: I don't need to install readers on my
>>> machines at home or my iOS devices to view the forum. All I need is
>>> a browser, which exists on every device I use.
>>>
>>
>> I will grant you that one. :-) Wait! Didn't you mention something
>> about an RSS reader earlier? Isn't that another piece of software that
>> you are suggesting to support the Forum?
>
> I was just trying to say that you don't have to install anything.
> However, if someone likes using RSS feed readers, they can continue to
> do so. So many more options :)
>
>>
>>
>>> Some People Have No NewsgroupAccess: Some companies don't even allow
>>> access to many newsgroups. Well ... I know that at least two
>>> companies fall in this category for sure. My company, Sybase, by
>>> default, turns off access to all newsgroups. I simply can't get to
>>> them. So if a product uses newsgroups for support, I am pretty much
>>> out of luck. I have to open a support ticket and (fingers crossed)
>>> they may or may not give me access. I don't have that problem with a
>>> web forum. And about three years ago SAP acquired Sybase. Two days
>>> ago I tried to get to our current Advantage newsgroups from the SAP
>>> network (which we will be switching to in about 40 days). And I
>>> couldn't reach the Advantage newsgroups. In other words, I won't be
>>> able to reach my own newsgroups from my own company's network in the
>>> very near future unless I figure out who to talk to.
>>>
>>
>> Again, I will grant you that one, I too have that issue with my
>> employer.
>>
>>> More Support from Advantage Team Members: To be honest, I have never
>>> once read a newsgroup at home in my entire life. Therefore, I have
>>> never answered an Advantage support question on those newsgroups on
>>> my own time in the many years I have worked here. I do, however,
>>> answer questions on my own time on Stackoverflow
>>> (http://stackoverflow.com/users/23478/mark-wilkins). Our new web
>>> forum is modeled after that site (which happens to be one of the more
>>> popular technical question-and-answer sites on the web). Because of
>>> the simpler access, I expect that I will browse the Advantage forums
>>> in the evenings or mornings before sometimes and will answer
>>> questions when I can. In other words, you will be getting more time
>>> from at least one developer.
>>>
>>
>> Don't understand this one. Are you ascerting that more 'support'
>> people frequent Forums than NGs? How can you say that if the ADS Forum
>> has only just started? Given the amount of time that this NG has been
>> around and the level of support that I have received from it over the
>> years I am quite please withthe support/participation from ADS here.
>>
>
> No - all I was saying is that there is a chance that I will monitor the
> forums some in my off time. I never did monitor newsgroups at home
> because I couldn't reach them. The last sentence of the paragraph was
> the critical one ("from at least one developer" [me]). I can't speak
> for the others. Although I already did see one Advantage team member
> post a response at a time that must have been about 8pm on Friday for
> his time. But if stackoverflow.com is any indicator, that style of Q&A
> forum is a bit more popular than newsgroups; I am not aware of any
> newsgroup that ever generated even half the interest that stackoverflow
> generates. But you are correct; it's brand new, so it's all a guess at
> this point.
>
>>>
>>> I apologize for giving that impression. That definitely was not our
>>> intent; our very real belief is that it would make things much easier
>>> to use and provide better support.
>>>
>>
>> And I respect that belief/perception.
>>
>>> And I can't help but ask about the phrase "another in a trend". One
>>> of our strengths (I think) has always been that we try to help out
>>> our customers and provide great support. Your comment definitely
>>> makes it sound as if you disagree. Please let us know about the
>>> other things; I can't promise anything, but it would be useful for us
>>> to know which directions we are heading that are causing the problems.
>>>
>>
>> Apologies - This was an expression of general dissappointment of the
>> trend by many NG operators now moving to Forums.
>>
>
> Ah - I see. Thanks.
>
>>> >
>>>
>>> I can't comment on this part; I don't know what would be necessary to
>>> make this happen.
>>>
>>
>> Can it be looked at?
>>
>
> We will discuss it here and see what kind of options there are.
>
>>
>> P.S. Are we having fun yet?
>
> Indeed. I like your points and (again) the fact that you explained your
> thinking. It is much more useful than someone just saying they don't
> like something.
>
> Mark


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-09 14:59:18.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c6da4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <5022e22f$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <5022e22f$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 08:59:18 -0600
Lines: 1
Organization: Sybase
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Article PK: 1105634

Hi Howard,

"Howard Fox" <hafox@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5022e22f$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
> Mark,
>
> If nothing else, I, personally, really appreciate the fact that you (at
> least - not many other R&D folks have chimed in) aren't just ignoring
> those who have raised concerns. As a very new ADS user, I've so far found
> that to be a hallmark of your tech support and it's made a huge difference
> in my early adoption of the software.

Thanks - that's good to hear.

>
> Since my original post (about the NGs), I've spent a little time on the
> new forums, and I have to admit, with a little poking around in the inner
> workings, it was pretty straight-forward to find things. One thing that I
> couldn't figure out, however, was how to reply specifically to an answer
> to my own question. I finally "add(ed) a comment". Is that what I should
> have done, or do you know of another method?

Yes, that is the correct thing to do in that situation (in my opinion). The
web forum definitely is not as good for carrying on a conversation as a
newsgroup. Stackoverflow addressed that by making chat forums; we do not
currently have anything similar available. But for responding to a question
or asking for clarification about a question or answer, the comments work
pretty well. And comments are okay for short conversations too. When
adding new information or expanding a question, I think it is best to simply
edit the original question (or answer as appropriate), which I see is what
you did. I like the end result of a "completed" question (with answer) on
the web forum for this reason. If done well, it presents a nice concise
format for future visitors/readers looking for a solution.

> Also, what's up with the inability of certain users to add Tags?

It appears that it requires a reputation (karma) of 300 to create new tags
(http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/faq/). As a test just now, I
added a tag "deployment" to your question. I seem to recall that the
Advantage team was given some extra admin style privileges for things like
this. Until someone gets to the required reputation, they can just ask for
a new tag to be created in a comment and one of us can add it. I believe
that the main reason for doing that is to lower the affects of drive by
spammers (which will definitely happen). It makes it harder for someone to
quickly sign up and make a mess of things.

Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D



Howard Fox Posted on 2012-08-10 15:13:26.0Z
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:13:26 -0400
From: Howard Fox <hafox@cfl.rr.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c6da4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <5022e22f$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <5023d029$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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Article PK: 1105638

Hi, Mark,

Understood. I guess I'll just have to meditate a little more seriously
to increase my karma. I'm not sure if there's much I can do about my
reputation. :-)

Cheers,
Howard

>> Also, what's up with the inability of certain users to add Tags?

>
It appears that it requires a reputation (karma) of 300 to create new
tags (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum/faq/). As a test just
now, I added a tag "deployment" to your question. I seem to recall that
the Advantage team was given some extra admin style privileges for
things like this. Until someone gets to the required reputation, they
can just ask for a new tag to be created in a comment and one of us can
add it. I believe that the main reason for doing that is to lower the
affects of drive by spammers (which will definitely happen). It makes
it harder for someone to quickly sign up and make a mess of things.


Ian Branch Posted on 2012-08-04 01:16:15.0Z
From: "Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501ae23c$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4670$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c63c8@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c6da4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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Article PK: 1105627

Hi Mark,

I think we can argree to disagree on some points but in the main, as
you say, it is a personal preference, and in recognition of new people
on the block, what you are used to.

Cheers.

Ian


Pascal Boivin Posted on 2012-08-03 12:32:31.0Z
From: "Pascal Boivin" <pascal.boivin@nbautomation.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Followup-To: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:850 Advantage.Announcements:988 Advantage.Clipper:4570 Advantage.Crystal:1111 Advantage.DBI:135 Advantage.Delphi:25917 Advantage.DelphidotNet:154 Advantage.dotnet:2286 Advantage.FoxPro:401 Advantage.French:25 Advantage.General:13421 Advantage.Internet_Server:878 Advantage.Java:391
Article PK: 1104130

Please don't do that! For the exact same reasons as Ian Branch.

All Advantage NG are on my laptop and I can search them when I'm
sitting in dust in a factory without internet.

I have NG from Advantage, Delphi, MS, Xbase and some other smaller. I
can easily monitor all of them at the same time using a real
newsbrowser.

Using a webbrowser, we will receive tons on email out of context that
will require us to open the web page everytime. If we go out for
vacation for one week, this will be horrible when we will be back.
Using a newsbrowser, we see thread with a different color when there is
a reply.

I know a web interface is easier to use by someone who know nothing
about newsgroup. But this is not a reason to remove the news server.
It would be like removing the chirurgical knife from the hand of a
doctor because butter knife are easier to use.

A dual interface (news:// and http://) would be the perfect solution
for newbie AND poweruser like us.


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-03 21:48:14.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <xn0i1e71027yfn000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <xn0i1e71027yfn000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 15:48:14 -0600
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Article PK: 1105630


"Pascal Boivin" <pascal.boivin@nbautomation.com> wrote in message
news:xn0i1e71027yfn000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com...
> Please don't do that! For the exact same reasons as Ian Branch.
>
> All Advantage NG are on my laptop and I can search them when I'm
> sitting in dust in a factory without internet.

You can still do that with an RSS reader. Just subscribe to the RSS feeds
for the tags (call them categories if you wish) in which you are interested.

>
> I have NG from Advantage, Delphi, MS, Xbase and some other smaller. I
> can easily monitor all of them at the same time using a real
> newsbrowser.

An RSS reader will allow you to continue doing this.

>
> Using a webbrowser, we will receive tons on email out of context that
> will require us to open the web page everytime. If we go out for
> vacation for one week, this will be horrible when we will be back.
> Using a newsbrowser, we see thread with a different color when there is
> a reply.

You can turn off emails in the options. You don't have to receive any.

>
> I know a web interface is easier to use by someone who know nothing
> about newsgroup. But this is not a reason to remove the news server.
> It would be like removing the chirurgical knife from the hand of a
> doctor because butter knife are easier to use.

It is clearly a preference issue, but I think the web browser is a much
better tool for a question-and-answer forum. A newsgroup feed, is better
for conversations like this, but this is one of the few "conversations" that
have ever appeared on these newsgroups.


Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D


Pascal Boivin Posted on 2012-08-06 14:03:07.0Z
From: "Pascal Boivin" <pascal.boivin@nbautomation.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <xn0i1e71027yfn000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com> <501c4711$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:1003
Article PK: 1105628

Hi

I have to investigate about RSS. I know what it is, but I never use it.

> > Using a webbrowser, we will receive tons on email out of context
> > that will require us to open the web page everytime. If we go out
> > for vacation for one week, this will be horrible when we will be
> > back. Using a newsbrowser, we see thread with a different color
> > when there is a reply.
>
> You can turn off emails in the options. You don't have to receive
> any.

It doesn't bother me if I receive tons of emails. What I'm trying to
say is we will have to find what was the context. If you use facebook,
you can see what I'm talking about. You can receive email with replies
like "Are you gay?", "My wife is", "Just the weekend". You have to
open a web page for each emails to see what they are talking about.
With a newsbrowser, there will be 3 lines with color.

If there is a "Next unread message" button on the new support forum,
this would allow us to read each threads, without having to go back and
forth between emails and the forum.

PS: Mark, have a good vacation!


Pedro Posted on 2012-08-03 13:05:04.0Z
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 10:05:04 -0300
From: Pedro <advantage@adinet.com.uy>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120803-0, 03/08/2012), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
NNTP-Posting-Host: 200.40.190.118
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Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:851 Advantage.Announcements:989 Advantage.Clipper:4571 Advantage.Crystal:1112 Advantage.DBI:136 Advantage.Delphi:25918 Advantage.DelphidotNet:155 Advantage.dotnet:2287 Advantage.FoxPro:402 Advantage.French:26 Advantage.General:13422 Advantage.Internet_Server:879 Advantage.Java:392
Article PK: 1104132

I'm agree that it's not a great advantage for the last user to use forum
on-line. As many other said, I'm also use Thunderbird to download all the posts
and can read them whenever I want.

I'm also in another forums that are only on-line and I miss so much that I cant
see them in my TB any more, there are too slowly and cant find anything.

Please, keep it as today.

Regards

Pedro


Don Posted on 2012-08-03 14:04:29.0Z
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:04:29 -0600
From: Don <NdOgSlPoAcMke@comcast.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120714 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501bcd53$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501bcd53$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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Lines: 4
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:853 Advantage.Announcements:990 Advantage.Clipper:4572 Advantage.Crystal:1113 Advantage.DBI:137 Advantage.Delphi:25919 Advantage.DelphidotNet:156 Advantage.dotnet:2288 Advantage.FoxPro:403 Advantage.French:27 Advantage.General:13423 Advantage.Internet_Server:880 Advantage.Java:393
Article PK: 1104129

I agree with all of the others for the same reasons!!! I also use
Thunderbird.
Don


Steve Posted on 2012-08-03 14:53:15.0Z
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:53:15 -0600
From: Steve <steve@salon-software.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501bcd53$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501bda5f$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501bda5f$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.196.106.50
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X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 07:53:02 -0700, 206.196.106.50
Lines: 2
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:991
Article PK: 1105621

Same here, we also use Thunderbird in our office.


Howard Fox Posted on 2012-08-03 15:14:05.0Z
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 11:14:05 -0400
From: Howard Fox <hafox@cfl.rr.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.42.1.110
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X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 08:13:53 -0700, 71.42.1.110
Lines: 36
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:854 Advantage.Announcements:992 Advantage.Clipper:4573 Advantage.Crystal:1114 Advantage.DBI:138 Advantage.Delphi:25920 Advantage.DelphidotNet:157 Advantage.dotnet:2289 Advantage.FoxPro:404 Advantage.French:28 Advantage.General:13425 Advantage.Internet_Server:881 Advantage.Java:394
Article PK: 1104133

As many R&D members may recognize by now, I'm a new user of ADS and have
had lots of questions trying to make the transition to a new product.

I don't consider myself a true "power user" but, for what it's worth, I
still find the newsgroup format for receiving support MUCH more
convenient than any web-based forum that I've ever frequented. I, too,
am a Thunderbird fan.

I'm sure if any formal testing were done, it would be difficult to
imagine that the web-based forum would be more efficient in which to
move around and find only those items about which one is interested.
But, hey, I hate testing too.

For now, I'll jump over to the web forum and try to figure out how best
to post a followup to my last NG post.

Please register my vote to at least keep the NGs active for those of us
who need to save time wherever possible...

Howard Fox

On 8/2/2012 4:12 PM, Mike Hagman wrote:
> The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
> instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
> OR
> Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/
>
> On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so
> they can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to
> post new messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.
>
> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team


Volker Sengler Posted on 2012-08-03 19:13:53.0Z
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 21:13:53 +0200
From: Volker Sengler <advantage@sengler.de>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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Lines: 13
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:857 Advantage.Announcements:993 Advantage.Clipper:4574 Advantage.Crystal:1115 Advantage.DBI:139 Advantage.Delphi:25921 Advantage.DelphidotNet:158 Advantage.dotnet:2290 Advantage.FoxPro:405 Advantage.French:29 Advantage.General:13426 Advantage.Internet_Server:882 Advantage.Java:395
Article PK: 1104136


> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team

Just checked out the new forum. This is definitely not more convenient
than a NG.

I there are no real categories, only tags.

After 5 minutes I noted, that I would appreciate to stay on the "old" NG.

Bye
\/olker


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-03 20:00:49.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c22e4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501c22e4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:00:49 -0600
Lines: 1
Organization: Sybase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.219
Message-ID: <501c2de4@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 13:00:36 -0700, 10.6.193.219
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:994
Article PK: 1105622

It seems to me that tags can be used more accurately than single categories.
For example, suppose someone is executing an SQL query from a Delphi
application and cannot edit the result set. Categorizing it simply as
Delphi or as SQL is less accurate than using both tags. So one has the
option of putting it in a single category (one tag) or multiple categories
(two tags).

Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D

"Volker Sengler" <advantage@sengler.de> wrote in message
news:501c22e4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
>> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>> The Advantage Team
>
> Just checked out the new forum. This is definitely not more convenient
> than a NG.
>
> I there are no real categories, only tags.
>
> After 5 minutes I noted, that I would appreciate to stay on the "old" NG.
>
> Bye
> \/olker
>


Volker Sengler Posted on 2012-08-07 16:35:18.0Z
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 18:35:18 +0200
From: Volker Sengler <advantage@sengler.de>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c22e4$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c2de4@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501c2de4@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 84.56.225.57
Message-ID: <502143ac$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 7 Aug 2012 09:34:52 -0700, 84.56.225.57
Lines: 10
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:1007
Article PK: 1105629

Just realized an other sad point when using a RSS reader:

If there's an answer or comment the topic is not marked again as unread.
So, with a RSS reader you will not see if there are answers or comments.

I don't like to visit you forum manually by web browser. Newsgroup was
much easier to use...

Bye
\/olker


Alan Posted on 2012-08-03 21:00:55.0Z
From: "Alan" <observa_spam_sucks@xtra.co.nz>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 09:00:55 +1200
Lines: 29
X-Priority: 3
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X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 14:00:41 -0700, 125.239.58.251
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:859 Advantage.Announcements:995 Advantage.Clipper:4575 Advantage.Crystal:1116 Advantage.DBI:140 Advantage.Delphi:25922 Advantage.DelphidotNet:159 Advantage.dotnet:2291 Advantage.FoxPro:406 Advantage.French:30 Advantage.General:13427 Advantage.Internet_Server:883 Advantage.Java:396
Article PK: 1104138


"Mike Hagman" <mike.hagman@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...
> The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
> instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
> OR
> Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/
>
> On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so they
> can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to post new
> messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.
>
> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team

Mike

I've had a look. I HATE it. Much more flexible and easier to view in
newsgroups.

I'll switch if I have to. But I'd rather not.

Thanks

Alan


Mark Wilkins Posted on 2012-08-03 22:13:02.0Z
From: "Mark Wilkins" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <501c3bf9$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501c3bf9$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:13:02 -0600
Lines: 1
Organization: Sybase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.219
Message-ID: <501c4ce1$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 3 Aug 2012 15:12:49 -0700, 10.6.193.219
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:998
Article PK: 1105633


>
> Mike
>
> I've had a look. I HATE it. Much more flexible and easier to view in
> newsgroups.
>

Can you clarify what part of it you hate? (And ixnay on just saying "all of
it" ;) I am actually curious to know how newsgroups make things more
flexible and easier. I think just the opposite. I have never liked using
newsgroups. I have already mentioned some of the following in other
responses, but here are my thoughts again (just to give you an idea of the
type of information I am looking for to support your statement).

- Searching a web forum is much easier. Google already has the (very few)
questions out there already tagged. For example, suppose I am getting an
error about configuring the WebConfig utility. I can type this search in
Google: "Root DB configure WebConfig Utility
site:devzone.advantagedatabase.com" The top hit is a topic on the web
forum. Prior to the web forum, that would have had one hit (a link to our
online help file).

- I can slice and dice the data however I want using the tags, which is
much more than flexible than hard and fast categories.

- I can subscribe to the tags (categories if you prefer that term) in an
RSS reader.

- I can optionally choose to have emails sent to me for new posts.

- The web forum is more fun; you get immediate feedback, you get an idea if
the answer is from someone new or an experienced person. Take a look at
http://stackoverflow.com.

- A simple Q and A site leads to a better reference "library". A newsgroup
tends to lend itself to conversations rather than questions. So if I
stumble across a newsgroup thread that seems pertinent to an issue I am
having, it is quite possible I have to read through a long conversation to
gather all the information. With a Q and A site, the tendency (and desired
behavior) is to edit the original question to clarify points. Thus, you end
up with one nicely worded question with a corresponding answer.

- The web forum will (I believe) ultimately end up inviting more answers to
a single question. I have noticed that with the newsgroups, one person will
answer a question and then nobody else will answer once it has been
addressed. With the web forum, it becomes a little bit of a friendly
competition to see who can produce the best answer to be accepted (more
points). I think that will lead to higher quality answers and thus produce
a better resource for future web searches.

The only thing I see that newsgroups do better is to allow "conversations".
But ... there are not many "conversations" here. This particular thread
being the anomaly here. A lot of them are single posts with a question, a
single answer, and then (if the original poster is polite) a thank you post.
There are certainly a number of "conversation" style question and answer
threads on these current newsgroups, but I would argue that they would work
just as well or better on the web forum and the end result would be a much
more concise description of the problem with a solution.

Anyway, I am on vacation for the next four days and won't have access to the
newsgroups so won't be able to respond any further. I may take my iPod
Touch, though, and be able to access the web forum :)

Mark Wilkins
Advantage R&D


Marius Posted on 2012-08-05 19:07:01.0Z
From: "Marius" <sorry@nospamfor.me>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Followup-To: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
User-Agent: XanaNews (x86; Portable ISpell)/1.19.1.341
Message-ID: <xn0i1hk331qjodr000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Ref: devzone.advantagedatabase.com ~XNS:000002DC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:861 Advantage.Announcements:1002 Advantage.Clipper:4576 Advantage.Crystal:1117 Advantage.DBI:141 Advantage.Delphi:25923 Advantage.DelphidotNet:160 Advantage.dotnet:2292 Advantage.FoxPro:407 Advantage.French:31 Advantage.General:13428 Advantage.Internet_Server:884 Advantage.Java:397
Article PK: 1104140


Mike Hagman wrote:

>We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>The Advantage Team

No they will be a lot more akward then this one. Just another akward
'modern' forum.

Imagine; Normally i'm able to read new conversations in 15 seperate
newsservers and hundreds of news groups. With this new forum(s) i would
need to visit ADS seperately and i can ensure you i will not do that as
this will be much more time consuming. And no; RSS is very poor
technology to replace mass mail conversations. Tagging messages (like
http://stackoverflow.com) looks moderm but it think its a joke and a
very bad direction to 'index' messages IMO.

Another thing; Valuable history will be lost. Although this forum will
still be around after sept the old forum/nntp will be forgotton soon,
imagine all the knowledge of the past which gets lost overnight.
Embarcadero did the same (after some stupid server crashes). At least
enrich you're new forum with all the messages from the past to avoid
this.


I hope you reconsider or extend your new forum with nntp (and fill them
with the old messages from the pas 9 years)

Regards,
Marius


Mark Jacobs Posted on 2012-08-13 13:12:46.0Z
From: "Mark Jacobs" <markj@critical.co.uk>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <xn0i1hk331qjodr000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:12:46 +0100
Lines: 28
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512
NNTP-Posting-Host: 93.157.216.162
Message-ID: <5028fd22$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 13 Aug 2012 06:12:02 -0700, 93.157.216.162
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:869
Article PK: 1104148

I 100% agree. We should backfill the fora with posts from the newsgroups. They look sparse, uninteresting and barren currently.
--
~_~
Mark Jacobs

"Marius" <sorry@nospamfor.me> wrote in message news:xn0i1hk331qjodr000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com...
> Mike Hagman wrote:
>
>>We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>>The Advantage Team
>
> No they will be a lot more akward then this one. Just another akward
> 'modern' forum.
>
> Imagine; Normally i'm able to read new conversations in 15 seperate
> newsservers and hundreds of news groups. With this new forum(s) i would
> need to visit ADS seperately and i can ensure you i will not do that as
> this will be much more time consuming. And no; RSS is very poor
> technology to replace mass mail conversations. Tagging messages (like
> http://stackoverflow.com) looks moderm but it think its a joke and a
> very bad direction to 'index' messages IMO.
>
> Another thing; Valuable history will be lost. Although this forum will
> still be around after sept the old forum/nntp will be forgotton soon,
> imagine all the knowledge of the past which gets lost overnight.
> Embarcadero did the same (after some stupid server crashes). At least
> enrich you're new forum with all the messages from the past to avoid
> this.
>
>
> I hope you reconsider or extend your new forum with nntp (and fill them
> with the old messages from the pas 9 years)
>
> Regards,
> Marius


Mark Jacobs Posted on 2012-08-13 13:13:54.0Z
From: "Mark Jacobs" <markj@critical.co.uk>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Announcements
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <xn0i1hk331qjodr000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:13:54 +0100
Lines: 28
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512
NNTP-Posting-Host: 93.157.216.162
Message-ID: <5028fd66$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 13 Aug 2012 06:13:10 -0700, 93.157.216.162
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Announcements:1013
Article PK: 1105631

I 100% agree. We should backfill the fora with posts from the newsgroups. They look sparse, uninteresting and barren currently.
--
~_~
Mark Jacobs

"Marius" <sorry@nospamfor.me> wrote in message news:xn0i1hk331qjodr000@devzone.advantagedatabase.com...
> Mike Hagman wrote:
>
>>We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
>>The Advantage Team
>
> No they will be a lot more akward then this one. Just another akward
> 'modern' forum.
>
> Imagine; Normally i'm able to read new conversations in 15 seperate
> newsservers and hundreds of news groups. With this new forum(s) i would
> need to visit ADS seperately and i can ensure you i will not do that as
> this will be much more time consuming. And no; RSS is very poor
> technology to replace mass mail conversations. Tagging messages (like
> http://stackoverflow.com) looks moderm but it think its a joke and a
> very bad direction to 'index' messages IMO.
>
> Another thing; Valuable history will be lost. Although this forum will
> still be around after sept the old forum/nntp will be forgotton soon,
> imagine all the knowledge of the past which gets lost overnight.
> Embarcadero did the same (after some stupid server crashes). At least
> enrich you're new forum with all the messages from the past to avoid
> this.
>
>
> I hope you reconsider or extend your new forum with nntp (and fill them
> with the old messages from the pas 9 years)
>
> Regards,
> Marius


Mike Hagman Posted on 2012-08-09 20:23:53.0Z
From: "Mike Hagman" <mike.hagman@sybase.com>
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:23:53 -0600
Lines: 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.101
Message-ID: <50241c3b@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 9 Aug 2012 13:23:23 -0700, 10.6.193.101
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:866 Advantage.Announcements:1010 Advantage.Clipper:4580 Advantage.Crystal:1122 Advantage.DBI:145 Advantage.Delphi:25932 Advantage.DelphidotNet:164 Advantage.dotnet:2296 Advantage.FoxPro:411 Advantage.French:35 Advantage.General:13441 Advantage.Internet_Server:888
Article PK: 1104142

I have received some feedback both here on the forum and through email about
some displeasure in moving to the forums. I understand that there is some
resistance to change regarding the switch. Perhaps I can build upon what
Mark has already described as many reasons for the change. We have put off
this transition as long as possible but there are significant business
reasons to switch to internet forums most importantly are:

1. The very basic business reason for online support is for people who need
support online to be able to receive it
- The internet forums can be reached by all our partners and users
(newsgroup servers are blocked by many companies and not reachable by some).
No special application is required, only a browser is needed without special
ports open to access the newsgroups making it easy to access from any
computer, tablet, and/or mobile devices. (From a business perspective the
newsgroups are not fulfilling their purpose if people that need support
can't access the newsgroups from their office when needed then the newsgroup
is worthless to them)

2. Find and receive quality answers to support questions/issue for all users
- Newsgroup content is not searchable and indexed by search engines. Users
looking for support on Advantage that don't know about the newsgroups can't
find the support content. (For example, if you Google an advantage error
you will not get newsgroup postings about the error) This reduces the
Advantage presences on the internet and makes Advantage support more
difficult to find. Finding the Newsgroup information is not easy. (I
realize this is not an issue for long time users of the newsgroups, but it
is an issue for many others).

Forums do have there advantages and disadvantages over the Newsgroups in
certain scenarios. Naturally, both have their strengths and weaknesses.
But the underlining business purpose is to provide support for people who
need it and the newsgroup is no longer filling that requirement for all
users of our business. I understand that changing to a different online
support interface causes some changes in how you interact and receive
support by using a different user interface. These changes are a
unfortunate by-product of making support available to everyone and in some
cases users prefer the forums over the newsgroups and find them to better
met their needs.

From a users point of view I would think that getting a quality and timely
answer to your Advantage question is of the highest value when using online
support. In the forums case, you will still be receiving the highest level
of support many times from the engineer who actually wrote the code to
answer your questions. This will remain with the forums just as it has been
with the newsgroups and I am hoping that the quality and timeless of the
answers will ultimately be more important then a change in the user
experience.

This direction is our sincere intent to make support available to everyone,
easier, and better moving forward, I apologize if you do not agree.

Mike



"Mike Hagman" wrote in message
news:501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...

The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
OR
Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/

On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so they
can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to post new
messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.

We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
The Advantage Team


Richard Beilby Posted on 2012-08-28 22:54:32.0Z
Message-ID: <503D4C28.CE5E2A9C@nospam.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 23:54:32 +0100
From: Richard Beilby <nospam@nospam.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <50241c3b@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.229.9.168
X-Trace: 28 Aug 2012 15:53:25 -0700, 80.229.9.168
Lines: 31
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:874 Advantage.Announcements:1017 Advantage.Clipper:4585 Advantage.Crystal:1127 Advantage.DBI:150 Advantage.Delphi:25937 Advantage.DelphidotNet:169 Advantage.dotnet:2301 Advantage.FoxPro:416 Advantage.French:40 Advantage.General:13455 Advantage.Internet_Server:893
Article PK: 1103515


Mike Hagman wrote:

>
> 2. Find and receive quality answers to support questions/issue for all users
> - Newsgroup content is not searchable and indexed by search engines. Users
> looking for support on Advantage that don't know about the newsgroups can't
> find the support content. (For example, if you Google an advantage error
> you will not get newsgroup postings about the error) This reduces the
> Advantage presences on the internet and makes Advantage support more
> difficult to find. Finding the Newsgroup information is not easy. (I
> realize this is not an issue for long time users of the newsgroups, but it
> is an issue for many others).
>

The above statement is NOT true. I posted a message on Embarcadero's
(was Borland) NG yesterday, got a couple of quick replies. A little
later I did a Google search on the tropic and found that my post and the
replies came up within the search results. The ADS NG or server is
obviously not configured properly.

SAP is a crap company with crap products. It is obviously passing on its
reputation to its subsidiary companies. Extended Systems was a great
company to work with, not any longer after its take-overs.

This NG has to continue as other contributors have said. Speed is of the
essence and fora cannot ever reach that level.

--

Regards,

Richard Beilby.


Benedictum Posted on 2012-08-06 14:24:19.0Z
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 09:24:19 -0500
From: Benedictum <dominus@vobis.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 99.111.238.46
Message-ID: <501fd376@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 6 Aug 2012 07:23:50 -0700, 99.111.238.46
Lines: 23
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:863 Advantage.Announcements:1004 Advantage.Clipper:4577 Advantage.Crystal:1118 Advantage.DBI:142 Advantage.Delphi:25924 Advantage.DelphidotNet:161 Advantage.dotnet:2293 Advantage.FoxPro:408 Advantage.French:32 Advantage.General:13429 Advantage.Internet_Server:885 Advantage.Java:398
Article PK: 1104143


On 8/2/2012 3:12 PM, Mike Hagman wrote:
> The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
> instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
> OR
> Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/
>
> On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so
> they can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to
> post new messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.
>
> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team

There must be a good reason in doing this transition. I just hoped the
ADS people have surveyed their users as to how this would impact their
usage. However, I always welcome a change for the good but somehow the
ADS people did not convey their message properly. It is like saying "Do
this or else..." If only they would transfer the NG files into new forum
then I can see lesser complaints. I will try to live with this if this
would impact the cost of doing business which they might pass on to us.


Ian Branch Posted on 2012-08-10 23:04:32.0Z
From: "Ian Branch" <branch_at_celestial_com_au>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Followup-To: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
User-Agent: XanaNews/1.19.1.368 (x86; Portable ISpell)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.167.126.128
Message-ID: <50259380@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Date: 10 Aug 2012 16:04:32 -0700
X-Trace: 10 Aug 2012 16:04:32 -0700, 59.167.126.128
Lines: 49
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:867 Advantage.Announcements:1012 Advantage.Clipper:4581 Advantage.Crystal:1123 Advantage.DBI:146 Advantage.Delphi:25933 Advantage.DelphidotNet:165 Advantage.dotnet:2297 Advantage.FoxPro:412 Advantage.French:36 Advantage.General:13442 Advantage.Internet_Server:889 Advantage.Java:402
Article PK: 1104146

A Little test...

1. Newsgroup: To get to this NG, see where there are responses, see
where there are responses to my contributions, see where there are
contributions to areas I am interested in - 1 click to fire up my NG
reader. One more click to post a new entry or respond to one.

2. Forum: Hmmm. Couple of routes here. Via the Advantage Web site
or directly to the Forums page. Lets be fair and go directly to the
Forum page. 1st click - fire up browser, 2nd click, find the bookmark,
3rd click select the book mark. (OK, I could have cheated here and
created a shortcut to the page). Good oh, one click to post a
question..Question - "How do I see/identify all the Fora (Is that the
right word?) where there are responses to me or in Fora I am interested
in?". No. Wait. I can raise a question but it seems I have to
login/signup for it to be published. Ummmm, OK, didn't need to do
this in the NGs but I'll give it a try. Click on Login/Signup to Post.
Bummer, it says "Tags: (required)" but apparently my reputation is not
good enough. Probably not going to get any better after this
submission.:-) OK. Delete tags. Click on Login/Signup to Post.
Bummer, it says "This field is required" referring to the Tags: field.
Catch 22. Sigh! Exit the page.

How is my experience so far???

OK. Lets look for a Login/Signup page. Ahhh. "Login" at the top of
the screen. Click.

Huh? Don't knowingly have a Twitter, Google, Yahoo or myOpenID
account. I say knowingly because I found out my kids created a
Facebook account for me. You can imagine my Joy...

Not interested in Twitter, Google or Yahoo. No idea about myOpenID,
never heard of it. Don't personally know anyone who has one. No idea
of its integrity. Not deliberately trying to be difficult, just
extremely paranoid about what/who gets my information.

OK. Select the bottom option "Click here if you're having trouble
signing in".

Enter my account email, click "Send Link" - Aaarrrggghhh!!! "Sorry, but
this email is not on our database."


OK. Enough of this . Good bye ADS.


Marius Posted on 2012-08-21 22:42:29.0Z
From: "Marius" <sorry@nospamfor.me>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com> <50259380@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
User-Agent: XanaNews (x86; Portable ISpell)/1.19.1.341
Message-ID: <xn0i24jfma4pe9o002@devzone.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Ref: devzone.advantagedatabase.com ~XNS:000002E1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 94.214.169.73
Date: 21 Aug 2012 15:42:29 -0700
X-Trace: 21 Aug 2012 15:42:29 -0700, 94.214.169.73
Lines: 8
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:872
Article PK: 1104149


Ian Branch wrote:

>OK. Enough of this . Good bye ADS.

Indeed, sad to see a good newsfeed replaced by that site..
And you certainly spend longer on the new forum i see.. ;)

But voila, got just 1 application left with good old ads ...


Keith C Posted on 2012-08-06 15:33:22.0Z
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 10:33:22 -0500
From: Keith C <keith@noemail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.173.82.218
Message-ID: <501fe3ab$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 6 Aug 2012 08:32:59 -0700, 24.173.82.218
Lines: 2
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:864 Advantage.Announcements:1005 Advantage.Clipper:4578 Advantage.Crystal:1119 Advantage.DBI:143 Advantage.Delphi:25926 Advantage.DelphidotNet:162 Advantage.dotnet:2294 Advantage.FoxPro:409 Advantage.French:33 Advantage.General:13430 Advantage.Internet_Server:886 Advantage.Java:399
Article PK: 1104147

I completely object to this. BAD MOVE!!!


Dale Curtis Posted on 2012-08-07 03:03:20.0Z
Message-ID: <50208578.1060804@practicalsystems.com.au>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:03:20 +1000
From: Dale Curtis <dale@practicalsystems.com.au>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: Advantage.AEP,Advantage.Announcements,Advantage.Clipper,Advantage.Crystal,Advantage.DBI,Advantage.Delphi,Advantage.DelphidotNet,Advantage.dotnet,Advantage.FoxPro,Advantage.French,Advantage.General,Advantage.Internet_Server,Advantage.Java
To: Mike Hagman <mike.hagman@sybase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 110.142.217.75
X-Trace: 6 Aug 2012 20:04:02 -0700, 110.142.217.75
Lines: 22
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.AEP:865 Advantage.Announcements:1006 Advantage.Clipper:4579 Advantage.Crystal:1120 Advantage.DBI:144 Advantage.Delphi:25928 Advantage.DelphidotNet:163 Advantage.dotnet:2295 Advantage.FoxPro:410 Advantage.French:34 Advantage.General:13431 Advantage.Internet_Server:887 Advantage.Java:400
Article PK: 1104150


On 03/08/2012 6:12 AM, Mike Hagman wrote:
> The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
> instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
> OR
> Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
> http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/
>
> On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so
> they can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to
> post new messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.
>
> We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
> The Advantage Team

When I first read this, I thought 'OK' let's see how it goes. But, after
my first trial I was left very under-whelmed and confused by the
web-based forum. Like so many software ventures, why try to fix
something which is not broken. The news group works well and is terrific
for searching, and very easy to follow threads, and very fast. Not so
with the new forum. Can you do a back-flip on this one?

Dale Curtis


Mike Hagman Posted on 2012-08-09 20:24:28.0Z
From: "Mike Hagman" <mike.hagman@sybase.com>
Newsgroups: Advantage.Java,Advantage.Jobs,Advantage.Kylix,Advantage.Linux,Advantage.NetWare,Advantage.Networking,Advantage.NT,Advantage.ODBC
References: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
In-Reply-To: <501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
Subject: Re: New Advantage Support Forum! Retiring Newsgroups
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:24:28 -0600
Lines: 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Importance: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.6.193.101
Message-ID: <50241c5d$1@solutions.advantagedatabase.com>
X-Trace: 9 Aug 2012 13:23:57 -0700, 10.6.193.101
Path: solutions.advantagedatabase.com
Xref: solutions.advantagedatabase.com Advantage.Java:401 Advantage.Jobs:25 Advantage.Kylix:51 Advantage.Linux:1361 Advantage.NetWare:2415 Advantage.Networking:1009 Advantage.NT:1873 Advantage.ODBC:1951
Article PK: 1121524

I have received some feedback both here on the forum and through email about
some displeasure in moving to the forums. I understand that there is some
resistance to change regarding the switch. Perhaps I can build upon what
Mark has already described as many reasons for the change. We have put off
this transition as long as possible but there are significant business
reasons to switch to internet forums most importantly are:

1. The very basic business reason for online support is for people who need
support online to be able to receive it
- The internet forums can be reached by all our partners and users
(newsgroup servers are blocked by many companies and not reachable by some).
No special application is required, only a browser is needed without special
ports open to access the newsgroups making it easy to access from any
computer, tablet, and/or mobile devices. (From a business perspective the
newsgroups are not fulfilling their purpose if people that need support
can't access the newsgroups from their office when needed then the newsgroup
is worthless to them)

2. Find and receive quality answers to support questions/issue for all users
- Newsgroup content is not searchable and indexed by search engines. Users
looking for support on Advantage that don't know about the newsgroups can't
find the support content. (For example, if you Google an advantage error
you will not get newsgroup postings about the error) This reduces the
Advantage presences on the internet and makes Advantage support more
difficult to find. Finding the Newsgroup information is not easy. (I
realize this is not an issue for long time users of the newsgroups, but it
is an issue for many others).

Forums do have there advantages and disadvantages over the Newsgroups in
certain scenarios. Naturally, both have their strengths and weaknesses.
But the underlining business purpose is to provide support for people who
need it and the newsgroup is no longer filling that requirement for all
users of our business. I understand that changing to a different online
support interface causes some changes in how you interact and receive
support by using a different user interface. These changes are a
unfortunate by-product of making support available to everyone and in some
cases users prefer the forums over the newsgroups and find them to better
met their needs.

From a users point of view I would think that getting a quality and timely
answer to your Advantage question is of the highest value when using online
support. In the forums case, you will still be receiving the highest level
of support many times from the engineer who actually wrote the code to
answer your questions. This will remain with the forums just as it has been
with the newsgroups and I am hoping that the quality and timeless of the
answers will ultimately be more important then a change in the user
experience.

This direction is our sincere intent to make support available to everyone,
easier, and better moving forward, I apologize if you do not agree.

Mike

"Mike Hagman" wrote in message
news:501adf35$2@solutions.advantagedatabase.com...

The New Advantage Support Forum is now available! Please use this forum
instead of the newsgroups for Advantage support.
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/forum
OR
Go to the Advantage Developers Zone and choose FORUMS -
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/

On September 1, 2012, all ADS Newsgroups will be set to read-only so they
can be used as reference only. It will no longer be possible to post new
messages to the newsgroup after September 1, 2012.

We hope you find the new forums more convenient and easier to use,
The Advantage Team