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Books on Sybase 12.0

4 posts in Windows NT Last posting was on 2001-01-20 07:51:36.0Z
sjm05 Posted on 2000-12-22 20:34:00.0Z
From: sjm05@health.state.ny.us
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:34:00 -0500
Newsgroups: sybase.public.sqlserver.nt
Subject: Books on Sybase 12.0
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Article PK: 1088835

Isn't strange that there has not been a single book
published about Sybase Servers since 1997.
With the new release of a SQL Server product by any
vendor there is usually a number of books published
long before it is released. In the case of Sybase
ASE 12.0 there has not been a book published about
it months after it's release.

Has the product such little profile that no authors
or publishers find worth their while to publish a
book about it? Given the large number of books
published on many nitch topics of the IS world it
is surprising that nothing is being published about
the Sybase products. One would believe that Sybase
marketing itself could and should do something to
encourage these related support materials.

At this point it appears that the market profile
of Sybase Servers has seems to fallen into total
obscurity as far as the publishing marketplace
is concerned. So we find ourselves confined to
just the support materials produced by Sybase
itself in the On-line manuals and help files.

I think that it is interesting that Sybase is
encouraging users to move to the 12.0 platform
by discontinuing support for the 11.0 product.
At the same time there are a number of support
book on the 11.0 ASE server and none that
address the 12.0 product.

This is a significant problem for the Sybase ASE
Windows NT users because the Windows NT OS is not
the main target of the ASE product. ASA is
better suited and supported in the Windows
environment. Many of the questions being raised
in this News Group would often be addressed in
third party books about an IS product.

This leads to other questions such as:

Has Sybase lost interest in the SQL Server
market?

Is Sybase retreating to the Data Warehouse
and Portal markets as their future point
of product direction?

Where does that leave us?


Jason Froebe Posted on 2000-12-27 18:26:04.0Z
Message-ID: <3A4A343C.81F4C3FB@sybase.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 12:26:04 -0600
From: Jason Froebe <jfroebe@sybase.com>
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
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Subject: Re: Books on Sybase 12.0
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Article PK: 1088830


sjm05@health.state.ny.us wrote:

> Isn't strange that there has not been a single book
> published about Sybase Servers since 1997.
> With the new release of a SQL Server product by any
> vendor there is usually a number of books published
> long before it is released. In the case of Sybase
> ASE 12.0 there has not been a book published about
> it months after it's release.
>
> Has the product such little profile that no authors
> or publishers find worth their while to publish a
> book about it? Given the large number of books
> published on many nitch topics of the IS world it
> is surprising that nothing is being published about
> the Sybase products. One would believe that Sybase
> marketing itself could and should do something to
> encourage these related support materials.
>
> At this point it appears that the market profile
> of Sybase Servers has seems to fallen into total
> obscurity as far as the publishing marketplace
> is concerned. So we find ourselves confined to
> just the support materials produced by Sybase
> itself in the On-line manuals and help files.
>
> I think that it is interesting that Sybase is
> encouraging users to move to the 12.0 platform
> by discontinuing support for the 11.0 product.
> At the same time there are a number of support
> book on the 11.0 ASE server and none that
> address the 12.0 product.
>
> This is a significant problem for the Sybase ASE
> Windows NT users because the Windows NT OS is not
> the main target of the ASE product. ASA is
> better suited and supported in the Windows
> environment. Many of the questions being raised
> in this News Group would often be addressed in
> third party books about an IS product.
>
> This leads to other questions such as:
>
> Has Sybase lost interest in the SQL Server
> market?
>
> Is Sybase retreating to the Data Warehouse
> and Portal markets as their future point
> of product direction?
>
> Where does that leave us?

Hi,

I'm just letting you know that I forwarded your message to the "right
people" so this can be taken care of. IMHO you present a valid
point....

j


Download VCard jfroebe.vcf


sjm05 Posted on 2000-12-27 20:53:33.0Z
From: sjm05@health.state.ny.us
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:53:33 -0500
Newsgroups: sybase.public.sqlserver.nt
Subject: Re: More Books on Sybase 12.0
Message-ID: <9FF076BEFC0215B10072C419852569C2.00833A35852569BD@webforums>
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Article PK: 1088831

I work with a group of other developers at the NYS Dept.
of Health. Our shop uses Sybase ASE servers and Netscape
Enterprise Web Servers operating on a number of Sun boxes.
Our applications are a mixture of PowerDynamo, HTML,
JavaScript, Perl, Java and numerous stored procedures.
We are fortunate to be located in the Northeastern United
States with access to a number of Sybase training Centers
located in major metropolitan areas such as New York City,
Boston, Rockaway New Jersey as well as a number of
regional training centers operated by Sybase Affiliates
(one located right here in our home base of Albany NY).
In recent years we have found that many of the Sybase
courses listed on the schedules of the Sybase Affiliate
centers including those offered in Boston and Rockaway
New Jersey are not offered as scheduled sometimes they
are postponed time and again due to a lack of course
enrollments. Sometimes we find that our two or three
students are the only attendees (which has worked to
our benefit giving us a great deal of extra attention to
our application issues).

Often we have had to travel to NYC to get the desired
courses which costs anywhere from about $1,200.00 to
$2,400.00 per enrollment plus travel, lodging and meals
which altogether can bring the cost of sending an
employee to about $4,000.00 plus for a three to four day
course. It can be quite expensive to send a number of
students to courses in NYC.

At the same time these Sybase Affiliate Training Centers
are able to fill their classrooms with students interested
in Oracle, MS SQL Servers, VBASIC, ASP, VBScript,
XML, etc. This leads to other problems in recruitment in
that we are not likely to get very many candidates
responding to ads requesting developers with experience in
Sybase products. In addition it makes our location less
attractive to candidates who want experience in mainstream
products. When we get new employees we end up doing a
certain amount of the training in-house which is distracting
and expensive in the use of personnel resources.

As a result of the cost and availability issues related to
Sybase training courses, reference books on Sybase
products are an important tool for our operations. Books
are always available day in and day out long after the
course experience is largely forgotten. On-line reference
manuals are only occasionally helpful. Often we can't find
even a reference to what we need in the Sybase On-Line
manuals. If an issues of interest is something simple then
one of us is likely to know it already. The books are our
main source of information for issues that we need
to research providing detailed examples of a variety of
illustrated methods not found in On-Line documentation.

As an example we use PowerDynamo extensively in our
applications and the Sybase On-Line documentation
amounts to three small manuals entitled PowerDynamo
Plug-ins, Users Guide, and Reference. The decision to use
PowerDynamo was made some time ago with much push
from the local Sybase representatives in the early days after
it's release as a product. Nowadays Sybase has discontinued
their courses on PowerDynamo and folded it into the Sybase
Enterprise Application Server, so we are in a position of
having to support the PD based applications on our own.
The PD manuals only provided the barest idea of how to get
started in PD application development. Along the way we
have had to develop many of our own techniques. The
techniques we have developed and the complexity of our
current PD applications go far beyond the material available
in the Sybase PD On-line manuals. This raises questions
about how this agency will provide training for new
employees in the future on how to support the PD
applications. Unfortunately there are no books illustrating
examples of large scale applications development using
PowerDynamo. We would like to see what others have
done with PowerDynamo and how they have handled
some of the issues that we have had to address in our
development efforts.

We own at least one and sometimes several copies every
book published about Sybase products since 1995. We
have followed all of the prerelease announcements and
searched the shelves and web sites of the major book
publishers and retailers for any new books about Sybase
products.

I wrote the Newsgroup entry about Books on Sybase
ASE 12.0 after some consideration. I wanted to evoke
some reaction because I believe that it is an issue that
deserves some attention and concern.
Someone told me about a ASE 12.0 book by John
Kirkwood but I could not find any reference of John
Kirkwoods book at Coriolis Group his last publisher
of Sybase book: Designing and Troubleshooting for
High Performance.

I think it is significant to note that Rob Verschoor has
had to publish his own book after a publisher decided
not to publish it. Which can be downloaded from his
website (www.sypron.nl/ase_qref.html). He states
that he will soon be publishing a full ASE QuickRef
guide, titled "The Complete Sybase ASE Quick
Reference Guide" (ISBN 90-806117-1-9).

In our exploration of other Sybase books we have
found several other books on Sybase products that
had been scheduled but never published due to a
perceived lack of demand determined by the publishers.

I applaud Rob Vershoor efforts and I feel that this is an
area where Sybase marketing could help by facilitating
the publishing of third party books on Sybase products.

There is another book by Jeffrey Garbus which is titled
Administrator's Guide to Sybase ASE 12.5 with
CDROM scheduled for (July 2001) ISBN:1556223072.
Which we found referenced on Amazon.com. This listing
lists the Publisher as Unknown, raising the question as to
whether it will make it to the shelves.

I should also note that we found some recent books such
as the Official Sybase Press Data Warehousing on the
Net Guide+CD, cvrs SQL databases (1998) with a retail
price of $59.00 being auctioned at priced like $8.99,$12.00,
$14.00, which may be why many publishers are reluctant to
publish books about Sybase products without an
underwriting by Sybase.
One suggestion is that Sybase sponsor the publishing of
third party Sybase product books in small amounts designed
to cater to the expressed needs of their developer community.
In that way they or the authors can canvas the developer
community to determine if there is a significant level of
interest such as what Rob Vershoor is doing by offering
downloads of his developing book. Then publish small in
small numbers to satisfy the needs of the developer
community and offer some to the main book retailer to
stimulate interest and provide presence of the product
line.
If something is not done to support the future development
of third party books on Sybase Products I believe that this
product line will continue to become more and more obscure
and harder for Businesses and Agencies to support. The
availability, amount, and cost of support is an important
factor in the decision of many businesses and agencies to
move to Oracle or MS SQL server.

The excellence of the products while very important is
often not the determining factor in the long success of
a product line. Marketing and the appearance as a
market leader often have more to do with the long
term success of products as in Beta versus VHF or in
the many fine products that have been retired by
the onslaught of the Microsoft marketing machine.


Tim Byford Posted on 2001-01-20 07:51:36.0Z
From: "Tim Byford" <tbyford@yahoo.com>
References: <CB55D0724799494F0070FA1D852569BD.0070FA2E852569BD@webforums> <9FF076BEFC0215B10072C419852569C2.00833A35852569BD@webforums>
Subject: Re: More Books on Sybase 12.0
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:51:36 -0500
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Article PK: 1088758

I agree with you that Sybase marketing is simply non-existent. In a few
short years - read "since being bought by Sybase", Powerbuilder's market
share has tumbled from 50+% to the low 20's (last I heard - don't quote me).
Ironically, it is superior to its main competitor, VB, in many ways. The
fall is because of a perception that the product is dead. Years have gone
by without a single news release, magazine ad, or trade show appearance. At
the bookstore, the 3 PB books in print are tucked in a corner - no match for
the entire wall that's devoted to VB. PB Desktop isn't even at the local
computer store, but its competitors are. New developers, fresh out of
school have not even heard of PB because schools are given free software by
MS.

Marketing 101 was Brand Recognition - I guess the Sybase marketing people
skipped that semester.

Regards,
Tim Byford

<sjm05@health.state.ny.us> wrote in message
news:9FF076BEFC0215B10072C419852569C2.00833A35852569BD@webforums...
> I work with a group of other developers at the NYS Dept.
> of Health. Our shop uses Sybase ASE servers and Netscape
> Enterprise Web Servers operating on a number of Sun boxes.
> Our applications are a mixture of PowerDynamo, HTML,
> JavaScript, Perl, Java and numerous stored procedures.
> We are fortunate to be located in the Northeastern United
> States with access to a number of Sybase training Centers
> located in major metropolitan areas such as New York City,
> Boston, Rockaway New Jersey as well as a number of
> regional training centers operated by Sybase Affiliates
> (one located right here in our home base of Albany NY).
> In recent years we have found that many of the Sybase
> courses listed on the schedules of the Sybase Affiliate
> centers including those offered in Boston and Rockaway
> New Jersey are not offered as scheduled sometimes they
> are postponed time and again due to a lack of course
> enrollments. Sometimes we find that our two or three
> students are the only attendees (which has worked to
> our benefit giving us a great deal of extra attention to
> our application issues).
>
> Often we have had to travel to NYC to get the desired
> courses which costs anywhere from about $1,200.00 to
> $2,400.00 per enrollment plus travel, lodging and meals
> which altogether can bring the cost of sending an
> employee to about $4,000.00 plus for a three to four day
> course. It can be quite expensive to send a number of
> students to courses in NYC.
>
> At the same time these Sybase Affiliate Training Centers
> are able to fill their classrooms with students interested
> in Oracle, MS SQL Servers, VBASIC, ASP, VBScript,
> XML, etc. This leads to other problems in recruitment in
> that we are not likely to get very many candidates
> responding to ads requesting developers with experience in
> Sybase products. In addition it makes our location less
> attractive to candidates who want experience in mainstream
> products. When we get new employees we end up doing a
> certain amount of the training in-house which is distracting
> and expensive in the use of personnel resources.
>
> As a result of the cost and availability issues related to
> Sybase training courses, reference books on Sybase
> products are an important tool for our operations. Books
> are always available day in and day out long after the
> course experience is largely forgotten. On-line reference
> manuals are only occasionally helpful. Often we can't find
> even a reference to what we need in the Sybase On-Line
> manuals. If an issues of interest is something simple then
> one of us is likely to know it already. The books are our
> main source of information for issues that we need
> to research providing detailed examples of a variety of
> illustrated methods not found in On-Line documentation.
>
> As an example we use PowerDynamo extensively in our
> applications and the Sybase On-Line documentation
> amounts to three small manuals entitled PowerDynamo
> Plug-ins, Users Guide, and Reference. The decision to use
> PowerDynamo was made some time ago with much push
> from the local Sybase representatives in the early days after
> it's release as a product. Nowadays Sybase has discontinued
> their courses on PowerDynamo and folded it into the Sybase
> Enterprise Application Server, so we are in a position of
> having to support the PD based applications on our own.
> The PD manuals only provided the barest idea of how to get
> started in PD application development. Along the way we
> have had to develop many of our own techniques. The
> techniques we have developed and the complexity of our
> current PD applications go far beyond the material available
> in the Sybase PD On-line manuals. This raises questions
> about how this agency will provide training for new
> employees in the future on how to support the PD
> applications. Unfortunately there are no books illustrating
> examples of large scale applications development using
> PowerDynamo. We would like to see what others have
> done with PowerDynamo and how they have handled
> some of the issues that we have had to address in our
> development efforts.
>
> We own at least one and sometimes several copies every
> book published about Sybase products since 1995. We
> have followed all of the prerelease announcements and
> searched the shelves and web sites of the major book
> publishers and retailers for any new books about Sybase
> products.
>
> I wrote the Newsgroup entry about Books on Sybase
> ASE 12.0 after some consideration. I wanted to evoke
> some reaction because I believe that it is an issue that
> deserves some attention and concern.
> Someone told me about a ASE 12.0 book by John
> Kirkwood but I could not find any reference of John
> Kirkwoods book at Coriolis Group his last publisher
> of Sybase book: Designing and Troubleshooting for
> High Performance.
>
> I think it is significant to note that Rob Verschoor has
> had to publish his own book after a publisher decided
> not to publish it. Which can be downloaded from his
> website (www.sypron.nl/ase_qref.html). He states
> that he will soon be publishing a full ASE QuickRef
> guide, titled "The Complete Sybase ASE Quick
> Reference Guide" (ISBN 90-806117-1-9).
>
> In our exploration of other Sybase books we have
> found several other books on Sybase products that
> had been scheduled but never published due to a
> perceived lack of demand determined by the publishers.
>
> I applaud Rob Vershoor efforts and I feel that this is an
> area where Sybase marketing could help by facilitating
> the publishing of third party books on Sybase products.
>
> There is another book by Jeffrey Garbus which is titled
> Administrator's Guide to Sybase ASE 12.5 with
> CDROM scheduled for (July 2001) ISBN:1556223072.
> Which we found referenced on Amazon.com. This listing
> lists the Publisher as Unknown, raising the question as to
> whether it will make it to the shelves.
>
> I should also note that we found some recent books such
> as the Official Sybase Press Data Warehousing on the
> Net Guide+CD, cvrs SQL databases (1998) with a retail
> price of $59.00 being auctioned at priced like $8.99,$12.00,
> $14.00, which may be why many publishers are reluctant to
> publish books about Sybase products without an
> underwriting by Sybase.
> One suggestion is that Sybase sponsor the publishing of
> third party Sybase product books in small amounts designed
> to cater to the expressed needs of their developer community.
> In that way they or the authors can canvas the developer
> community to determine if there is a significant level of
> interest such as what Rob Vershoor is doing by offering
> downloads of his developing book. Then publish small in
> small numbers to satisfy the needs of the developer
> community and offer some to the main book retailer to
> stimulate interest and provide presence of the product
> line.
> If something is not done to support the future development
> of third party books on Sybase Products I believe that this
> product line will continue to become more and more obscure
> and harder for Businesses and Agencies to support. The
> availability, amount, and cost of support is an important
> factor in the decision of many businesses and agencies to
> move to Oracle or MS SQL server.
>
> The excellence of the products while very important is
> often not the determining factor in the long success of
> a product line. Marketing and the appearance as a
> market leader often have more to do with the long
> term success of products as in Beta versus VHF or in
> the many fine products that have been retired by
> the onslaught of the Microsoft marketing machine.
>
>
>
>
>
>