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Does Sybase have a product future?

29 posts in Product Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2002-08-05 08:23:23.0Z
Guy Bourdon Posted on 2002-07-17 11:23:40.0Z
From: "Guy Bourdon" <scriptor@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:23:40 -0400
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Hi,

I'm looking at market shares in RDBMS (Gardner Report) and I'm perplexed by what I read. Gardner
considers Sybase a niche player. I would have thought that with Sybase's product line that they were
anything but a niche player.

http://www4.gartner.com/5_about/press_releases/2002_05/pr20020507a.jsp

Is Sybase loosing this marketing battle and will it eventually disappear off the chart?

There's an old saying ' build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door'. I
don't have any extensive experience with other RDBMS products than ASE and I'm wondering if it is an
inferior product and should I move on to other RDBMS to secure my future as an independent
contractor. I tried to find some impartial comparison in implementation and maintenance between
RDBMS vendors to no avail. Nor could I find any comparison from the point of view of management for
DBAs. The publishing industry is also staying away from Sybase products.

How does Sybases' ASE truly compare with other products?

Is the writing on the wall for Sybase.

Guy


Frank_Hamersley Posted on 2002-07-18 01:46:48.0Z
From: "Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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"Guy Bourdon" <scriptor@sympatico.ca> wrote
> I'm looking at market shares in RDBMS (Gardner Report) and I'm perplexed
by what I read. Gardner
> considers Sybase a niche player. I would have thought that with Sybase's
product line that they were
> anything but a niche player.
>

I guess they might make this assertion based on the view that Sybase and MS
often play catchup to IBM and Oracle in some of the enterprise aspects
(particularly say engine availability - not that these guys don't have
failures but you can cane them because of the amount of money that changes
hands). Even with ASE 12.5 on offer, I still would find it hard to imagine
a top tier retail bank betting the farm on Sybase - and expecting to open
'000's of branches for '000,000's of customers at 9:00 AM every day rain,
hail or shine!

The cost of entry (and most likely TCO) is lower for Sybase - but the
feature list is also limited by the funding limitations that must cause
Sybase in investing in new advancements.

All that said, if you know what you are doing and choose ASE for appropriate
tasks only, its got more than most SME's will ever need and it is definitely
affordable to that class of enterprise.

Cheers,

Frank.


species8472 Posted on 2002-07-18 18:10:59.0Z
From: "species8472" <species8427@GEENZULT.thedominion.cc>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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> hands). Even with ASE 12.5 on offer, I still would find it hard to
imagine
> a top tier retail bank betting the farm on Sybase - and expecting to open
> '000's of branches for '000,000's of customers at 9:00 AM every day rain,
> hail or shine!
>

This is nonsense, major financial institutions are running ASE,
in addition http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020718/neth005_1.html
which is also no small fry

--
Joop

"The trouble with the concept of time is,
there is no such thing as time,
there is only an unlimited permutation of now"

http://thedominion.cc


Rob Verschoor Posted on 2002-07-18 16:45:48.0Z
Reply-To: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
From: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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[...[

> Even with ASE 12.5 on offer, I still would find it hard to imagine
> a top tier retail bank betting the farm on Sybase - and expecting to
open
> '000's of branches for '000,000's of customers at 9:00 AM every day
rain,
> hail or shine!
>
[...]
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank.

That's an interesting viewpoint. There are banks (and other companies)
that *do* rely on ASE for that sort of thing. Do you
know something the rest of us don't ?

Rob V.


Frank_Hamersley Posted on 2002-07-21 23:36:24.0Z
From: "Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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"Rob Verschoor" and SpeciesXXXX wrote
> That's an interesting viewpoint. There are banks (and other companies)
> that *do* rely on ASE for that sort of thing. Do you
> know something the rest of us don't ?

I am aware of the penetration of Sybase into Financial Markets and
Banking. As it happens I work in the field (Treasury) on ASE 12.0 at the
moment and appreciate the benefits the product offers - I quite like it and
appreciate the skill of the people who have got it to where it is thus far!

However just last night, in the middle of an EOD roll processing run - ASE
left the real world and joined the faeries yet again! A 2628 error occurred
and all the worker spids were subsequently timesliced into oblivion over 25
minutes taken to crash dump! Restoration of online databases required
operator intervention and another 38 minutes. Because it was observed
promptly the end users did not detect a problem (our end of day stream
takes a few hours and we only have to be online by 7:00 AM so we have lots
of slack). It would be a different story if we happen to have a much bigger
end of day run and only 1 hour slack!

We had (in the past) applied HA to this system and found it detected the
problem and took the appropriate action (and this was a good thing)! But we
also ran into trouble when doing routine dumps because HA got spooked by the
dataservers going a bit quiet and so it zapped the server on a false
positive -
arrghh! The IT types here were so traumatised that they butchered HA even
though I tried to explain the circumstances and describe how we could manage
this behaviour to keep HA in the picture! It shouldn't be this hard if its
truly
an enterprise grade product.

We are attempting to address this (2628 error)! ESD #2 is getting a workout
on our test system as I write and if it proves not to be retrograde after
this weekends db reorgs it most likely will get into prod on Monday.

Some portion of this set of "problems" is in my view directly linked to ASE
using a cooperative multi tasking engine! Based on previous tangles with
timeslice problems it became apparent if you start an (perhaps
unconscionably) long query that manages to get its objects held in cache its
a candidate for timeslicing because the sucker doesn't reliably yield!!!!
I personally don't feel that "apparently not having found all the places
where
we need to yield" is quite deterministic enough for me.

So, if you want to run a "tier 1 retail bank" by which I meant an
international or national branch network handling cash, cheques,
ATMs, net banking, mortgages, business services and more in an integrated
systems solution for 000,000s of customer contacts per day (ie. not some
regional or state level operation) far be it from me to hold you back.

I realise you can apply resources (big money) to address many of these type
of "issues" but then what differentiates that from IBM and Oracle (except
feature list latency on some occasions). I don't expect too many
boards will allow you the luxury of "sorting out just a few more gremlins"
when
they want to be in business today. Anyone who has managed to achieve stuff
like the above has no doubt invested big time in understanding the
technology - wouldn't it be better to devote those resources to the business
itself?

At the end of it all I think I am a realist rather than a cynic. And that
won't stop me from championing Sybase where it is an appropriate option, but
by the same token I would be hard pushed to recommend it as a "4 seasons"
product for the top end of town (yet) even if there are some success stories
out there.

Feel free to try and change my thinking if you want!

Cheers,

Frank.
E&OE ;-)


Rob Verschoor Posted on 2002-07-22 08:58:30.0Z
Reply-To: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
From: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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I suppose you've found yourself at the unlucky end of an ASE bug --
it's always hard to argue that ASE is really a good product to someone
who's just seen production break down.
However, you seem to suggest that this sort of thing wouldn't happen
to Oracle or DB2 -- and I don't believe that's true. Being software,
those products have their bugs and weaknesses as well (just ask
eBay...). If the stars happen to be lined up the wrong way, you'll hit
a bug in *any* piece of software...
Having said that, Sybase should obviously fix this bug (and the
follow-on problems) - I'm sure you've opened a case.

Keep the faith!

Rob V.

"Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> "Rob Verschoor" and SpeciesXXXX wrote
> > That's an interesting viewpoint. There are banks (and other
companies)
> > that *do* rely on ASE for that sort of thing. Do you
> > know something the rest of us don't ?
>
> I am aware of the penetration of Sybase into Financial Markets and
> Banking. As it happens I work in the field (Treasury) on ASE 12.0
at the
> moment and appreciate the benefits the product offers - I quite like
it and
> appreciate the skill of the people who have got it to where it is
thus far!
>
> However just last night, in the middle of an EOD roll processing
run - ASE
> left the real world and joined the faeries yet again! A 2628 error
occurred
> and all the worker spids were subsequently timesliced into oblivion
over 25
> minutes taken to crash dump! Restoration of online databases
required
> operator intervention and another 38 minutes. Because it was
observed
> promptly the end users did not detect a problem (our end of day
stream
> takes a few hours and we only have to be online by 7:00 AM so we
have lots
> of slack). It would be a different story if we happen to have a
much bigger
> end of day run and only 1 hour slack!
>
> We had (in the past) applied HA to this system and found it detected
the
> problem and took the appropriate action (and this was a good thing)!
But we
> also ran into trouble when doing routine dumps because HA got
spooked by the
> dataservers going a bit quiet and so it zapped the server on a false
> positive -
> arrghh! The IT types here were so traumatised that they butchered
HA even
> though I tried to explain the circumstances and describe how we
could manage
> this behaviour to keep HA in the picture! It shouldn't be this hard
if its
> truly
> an enterprise grade product.
>
> We are attempting to address this (2628 error)! ESD #2 is getting a
workout
> on our test system as I write and if it proves not to be retrograde
after
> this weekends db reorgs it most likely will get into prod on Monday.
>
> Some portion of this set of "problems" is in my view directly linked
to ASE
> using a cooperative multi tasking engine! Based on previous tangles
with
> timeslice problems it became apparent if you start an (perhaps
> unconscionably) long query that manages to get its objects held in
cache its
> a candidate for timeslicing because the sucker doesn't reliably
yield!!!!
> I personally don't feel that "apparently not having found all the
places
> where
> we need to yield" is quite deterministic enough for me.
>
> So, if you want to run a "tier 1 retail bank" by which I meant an
> international or national branch network handling cash, cheques,
> ATMs, net banking, mortgages, business services and more in an
integrated
> systems solution for 000,000s of customer contacts per day (ie. not
some
> regional or state level operation) far be it from me to hold you
back.
>
> I realise you can apply resources (big money) to address many of
these type
> of "issues" but then what differentiates that from IBM and Oracle
(except
> feature list latency on some occasions). I don't expect too many
> boards will allow you the luxury of "sorting out just a few more
gremlins"
> when
> they want to be in business today. Anyone who has managed to
achieve stuff
> like the above has no doubt invested big time in understanding the
> technology - wouldn't it be better to devote those resources to the
business
> itself?
>
> At the end of it all I think I am a realist rather than a cynic. And
that
> won't stop me from championing Sybase where it is an appropriate
option, but
> by the same token I would be hard pushed to recommend it as a "4
seasons"
> product for the top end of town (yet) even if there are some success
stories
> out there.
>
> Feel free to try and change my thinking if you want!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank.
> E&OE ;-)
>
>
>


Frank_Hamersley Posted on 2002-07-23 02:52:45.0Z
From: "Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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"Rob Verschoor" wrote
>
> I suppose you've found yourself at the unlucky end of an ASE bug --
> it's always hard to argue that ASE is really a good product to someone
> who's just seen production break down.
> However, you seem to suggest that this sort of thing wouldn't happen
> to Oracle or DB2 -- and I don't believe that's true. Being software,
> those products have their bugs and weaknesses as well (just ask
> eBay...). If the stars happen to be lined up the wrong way, you'll hit
> a bug in *any* piece of software...
> Having said that, Sybase should obviously fix this bug (and the
> follow-on problems) - I'm sure you've opened a case.

I agree 100%! Whilst I can appreciate the vagaries of software it is much
harder to get a board member to do same. Basically they are only interested
in business outcomes, not the technical niceties or unfortunate foibles.
They simply will conclude that if the technology lets down the business,
then it must have been a incorrect choice by the techo's concerned.

Where IBM/Oracle have the imprimatur of Gartners enterprise tag arises from
the cost of entry for the product. Clearly once you have paid $M (usually
board approved to boot) you/they can reasonably expect to get attention to a
problem in an engineering sense because of the amount funds exchanged leaves
no doubt about what happens next. These developments then feed back and
rapidly accrues muscle to the core product. It is much harder for Sybase
with a lower cost of entry to convince departmental implementors (with
limited budgets) to kick in for the good of all as their interest is much
more often short-term.

I guess what I would like to see (hence the time devoted to this thread) is
some focus on making the product "unstoppable" in its own right. This is
not going to be easy considering the heritage, but is a key aspect of
breaking out of the niche mould.

On the specific issue, we have opened a case and as mentioned before are
planning to move to ESD#2 asap. However its not easy to assess in advance
whether our problem is a resolved problem or not - we will just have to wait
and see it seems. I would prefer to know that even if the 2628 recurs that
at the very least the system will keep going and limit the damage to one
spid (as well as produce more intense diagnostics that can lead an engineer
directly to the underlying cause) rather than take out the entire system.

We are definitely hangin' in there - but please don't leave us surfing the
bleeding edge for too long!

Cheers,

Frank.


Sethu M Posted on 2002-07-23 05:00:42.0Z
From: "Sethu M" <sethu@sybase.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com> <G$C2sVfMCHA.363@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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Frank,

One of our immediate goal is to provide stability on the operational
variability. This includes hardening in the code to prevent corruptions.
Sybase is very diligent in making ESDs and IRs available to
our customers.

We are working on near team

a) making HouseKeeper GC and REORG work better
b) provide a faster way to run update statistics
(a sampling based statistics option)
c) multiple tempdb support
d) Virtual tables that have monitoring info with drill down

all of the above scheduled to be released for 4Q 12.5.0.X release

Since 11.0 version, we have made it rule #1 that any internal
corruptions, system down, stacktrace all are treated as P1 bug
and has to be fixed before the product is shipped.

Your observations are correct about Oracle/DB2 in that they
exchange big bucks. But the subsequent expectations based
on the initial entry money paid may be just expectations.
I'm not sure the expectations have been met in all the customer
scenarios. Sybase is much more reactive to customer issues
than our competitors.

We are working on making ASE a unstoppable server with features
that will not only prevent corruption but also can dynamically
fix them on the fly.

Regards,
Sethu






"Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:G$C2sVfMCHA.363@forums.sybase.com...

"Rob Verschoor" wrote
>
> I suppose you've found yourself at the unlucky end of an ASE bug --
> it's always hard to argue that ASE is really a good product to someone
> who's just seen production break down.
> However, you seem to suggest that this sort of thing wouldn't happen
> to Oracle or DB2 -- and I don't believe that's true. Being software,
> those products have their bugs and weaknesses as well (just ask
> eBay...). If the stars happen to be lined up the wrong way, you'll hit
> a bug in *any* piece of software...
> Having said that, Sybase should obviously fix this bug (and the
> follow-on problems) - I'm sure you've opened a case.

I agree 100%! Whilst I can appreciate the vagaries of software it is much
harder to get a board member to do same. Basically they are only interested
in business outcomes, not the technical niceties or unfortunate foibles.
They simply will conclude that if the technology lets down the business,
then it must have been a incorrect choice by the techo's concerned.

Where IBM/Oracle have the imprimatur of Gartners enterprise tag arises from
the cost of entry for the product. Clearly once you have paid $M (usually
board approved to boot) you/they can reasonably expect to get attention to a
problem in an engineering sense because of the amount funds exchanged leaves
no doubt about what happens next. These developments then feed back and
rapidly accrues muscle to the core product. It is much harder for Sybase
with a lower cost of entry to convince departmental implementors (with
limited budgets) to kick in for the good of all as their interest is much
more often short-term.

I guess what I would like to see (hence the time devoted to this thread) is
some focus on making the product "unstoppable" in its own right. This is
not going to be easy considering the heritage, but is a key aspect of
breaking out of the niche mould.

On the specific issue, we have opened a case and as mentioned before are
planning to move to ESD#2 asap. However its not easy to assess in advance
whether our problem is a resolved problem or not - we will just have to wait
and see it seems. I would prefer to know that even if the 2628 recurs that
at the very least the system will keep going and limit the damage to one
spid (as well as produce more intense diagnostics that can lead an engineer
directly to the underlying cause) rather than take out the entire system.

We are definitely hangin' in there - but please don't leave us surfing the
bleeding edge for too long!

Cheers,

Frank.


Frank_Hamersley Posted on 2002-07-24 02:59:19.0Z
From: "Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com> <G$C2sVfMCHA.363@forums.sybase.com> <3AkdRegMCHA.349@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:59:19 +1000
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"Sethu M" wrote
> One of our immediate goal is to provide stability on the operational
> variability. This includes hardening in the code to prevent corruptions.
> Sybase is very diligent in making ESDs and IRs available to
> our customers.

This is as it should be - however that an ESD is a change and therefore a
potential source of instability in its own right - no fault of yours as you
can not be expected to imagine all the operational instances of ASE that
will arise - but still a risk. The problem for tech types is deciding in a
crisis like the 2628 leads to whether to stay in the frying pan or not.

> We are working on near team
> a) making HouseKeeper GC and REORG work better
> b) provide a faster way to run update statistics
> (a sampling based statistics option)
> c) multiple tempdb support
> d) Virtual tables that have monitoring info with drill down
These seem to be throughput or 24/7 goals - quite desirable but not
instantly recognisable as unstop oriented.

Although its not quite the same situation I am reminded of how (I
understand) Netware was able to give control of stability to the
customer/onsite techo. New (especially third party) NLM's were initally
loaded in Ring 1 and an obligatory performance hit was had getting through
the intel call gate. However if it went berserk there was hardware
protection for the kernel which lived in Ring 0. When a satisfactory period
had passed with incident you then bound the NLM to Ring 0 and it ran like a
cut cat - without protection!

Is there a like type trace flag for ASE so that when the 2628 occurs not
only is the system able to unwind the failed spid with absolute certainty as
well as will provide enough intelligence on the cause so it gets nailed in
the next ESD? Then I can choose to run in slow mode whilst I wait for the
ESD to arrive, without management pounding me in the interim.

> Your observations are correct about Oracle/DB2 in that they
> exchange big bucks. But the subsequent expectations based
> on the initial entry money paid may be just expectations.
> I'm not sure the expectations have been met in all the customer
> scenarios. Sybase is much more reactive to customer issues
> than our competitors.
They definately are not met in all cases - but they are also able to
demonstrate their core technologies are capable of mitigating such risks to
even lower levels - hence my previous expressed concern re co-operative
multitasking. Not that it can't be made to work....I just believe it will
take more pizza and Jolt for all concerned to do it!

> We are working on making ASE a unstoppable server with features
> that will not only prevent corruption but also can dynamically
> fix them on the fly.
Curiously IBM are labouring this very same aspect as a hallmark of DB2 v8 -
as ever the bar just keeps gettin' higher - just don't stumble on the run up
and I expect you will make it over with 'good technique'!

Cheers,

Frank.


Frank_Hamersley Posted on 2002-07-24 02:59:19.0Z
From: "Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com> <G$C2sVfMCHA.363@forums.sybase.com> <3AkdRegMCHA.349@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:59:19 +1000
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"Sethu M" wrote
> One of our immediate goal is to provide stability on the operational
> variability. This includes hardening in the code to prevent corruptions.
> Sybase is very diligent in making ESDs and IRs available to
> our customers.

This is as it should be - however that an ESD is a change and therefore a
potential source of instability in its own right - no fault of yours as you
can not be expected to imagine all the operational instances of ASE that
will arise - but still a risk. The problem for tech types is deciding in a
crisis like the 2628 leads to whether to stay in the frying pan or not.

> We are working on near team
> a) making HouseKeeper GC and REORG work better
> b) provide a faster way to run update statistics
> (a sampling based statistics option)
> c) multiple tempdb support
> d) Virtual tables that have monitoring info with drill down
These seem to be throughput or 24/7 goals - quite desirable but not
instantly recognisable as unstop oriented.

Although its not quite the same situation I am reminded of how (I
understand) Netware was able to give control of stability to the
customer/onsite techo. New (especially third party) NLM's were initally
loaded in Ring 1 and an obligatory performance hit was had getting through
the intel call gate. However if it went berserk there was hardware
protection for the kernel which lived in Ring 0. When a satisfactory period
had passed with incident you then bound the NLM to Ring 0 and it ran like a
cut cat - without protection!

Is there a like type trace flag for ASE so that when the 2628 occurs not
only is the system able to unwind the failed spid with absolute certainty as
well as will provide enough intelligence on the cause so it gets nailed in
the next ESD? Then I can choose to run in slow mode whilst I wait for the
ESD to arrive, without management pounding me in the interim.

> Your observations are correct about Oracle/DB2 in that they
> exchange big bucks. But the subsequent expectations based
> on the initial entry money paid may be just expectations.
> I'm not sure the expectations have been met in all the customer
> scenarios. Sybase is much more reactive to customer issues
> than our competitors.
They definately are not met in all cases - but they are also able to
demonstrate their core technologies are capable of mitigating such risks to
even lower levels - hence my previous expressed concern re co-operative
multitasking. Not that it can't be made to work....I just believe it will
take more pizza and Jolt for all concerned to do it!

> We are working on making ASE a unstoppable server with features
> that will not only prevent corruption but also can dynamically
> fix them on the fly.
Curiously IBM are labouring this very same aspect as a hallmark of DB2 v8 -
as ever the bar just keeps gettin' higher - just don't stumble on the run up
and I expect you will make it over with 'good technique'!

Cheers,

Frank.


Alan Posted on 2002-07-25 11:28:02.0Z
Message-ID: <3D3FE0C2.A7BB6102@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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>

With the new pricing scheme of charging a fixed amount per CPU instead of the
old seat licensing, one of the benefits of Sybase ASE the lower TCO compared to
other database vendors is been removed. Maybe the goal of achieving
operational stability is already becoming too costly.

Regards,
Alan


Sethu M Posted on 2002-07-25 17:14:36.0Z
From: "Sethu M" <sethu@sybase.com>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com> <G$C2sVfMCHA.363@forums.sybase.com> <3AkdRegMCHA.349@forums.sybase.com> <qKj3HYsMCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <3D3FE0C2.A7BB6102@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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I did not quite get your point ?

Please clarify.

Sethu

"Alan" <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D3FE0C2.A7BB6102@hotmail.com...
>

With the new pricing scheme of charging a fixed amount per CPU instead of
the
old seat licensing, one of the benefits of Sybase ASE the lower TCO compared
to
other database vendors is been removed. Maybe the goal of achieving
operational stability is already becoming too costly.

Regards,
Alan


Guy Bourdon Posted on 2002-07-25 23:00:33.0Z
From: "Guy Bourdon" <scriptor@sympatico.ca>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <dHC7MJgLCHA.1004@forums.sybase.com> <OhX3#xnLCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com> <G$C2sVfMCHA.363@forums.sybase.com> <3AkdRegMCHA.349@forums.sybase.com> <qKj3HYsMCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <3D3FE0C2.A7BB6102@hotmail.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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I recently called Sybase sales and the licensing agreement has changed. The sales person wasn't
quite sure or couldn't explain the new licensing agreement. From what I gathered if you're running
Sybase ASE on a server that has up to 4 cpu's Sybase considerers that a workgroup installation and
it's a specific fee schedule per number of seats. Above 4 cpu's Sybase considerers that an
enterprise installation and it's a different fee schedule per number of seats. Could you make the
argument with Sybase that you're binding four cpu's (affinity) for sybase processes and the rest are
used by some other application and the OS? Anyway, I was told to read the license agreement. Wish
I could find it on Sybase's web site.

Guy

"Sethu M" <sethu@sybase.com> wrote in message news:MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com...
> I did not quite get your point ?
>
> Please clarify.
>
> Sethu
>
> "Alan" <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3D3FE0C2.A7BB6102@hotmail.com...
> >
>
> With the new pricing scheme of charging a fixed amount per CPU instead of
> the
> old seat licensing, one of the benefits of Sybase ASE the lower TCO compared
> to
> other database vendors is been removed. Maybe the goal of achieving
> operational stability is already becoming too costly.
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>


Alan Posted on 2002-07-26 17:54:37.0Z
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I have also been told that the licening agreement has changed. The supplier I contacted considers all
Solaris machines as Enterprise installations no matter how many CPUs are in the machine. They then
charge close to $40000 per CPU for ASE EBE 12.X. There is also a charge of around $1600 per CPU
for the SDK license.
There is a new ASE SBE 12.X license for installations that do not need any of the Options, this costs
close to $10000 per CPU. We need the EBE edition instead of the SBE as the HA option is being used.

Now the cheapest installation of Sybase ASE EBE is about $41600, excluding the HA option cost, running
it on a 1 CPU Solaris Machine. Even if this machine was only a Solaris X1 that costs $995.
This machine was previously clasified as workplace but even the Enterprise Edition was installed using
the old licensing scheme. The base installation for $3995 with 5 seat licenses for $795 (these are the
current proces taken from the Sybase Web site, I don't understand why the suppliers licensing and the
Web site licensing are different) gives a total installation cost of under $8000.
There seems to be more than a 500% price increase. This new licensing scheme does not appear to be
designed to gain market share or to create a lower TCO.

Regards,
Alan

Guy Bourdon wrote:

> I recently called Sybase sales and the licensing agreement has changed. The sales person wasn't
> quite sure or couldn't explain the new licensing agreement. From what I gathered if you're running
> Sybase ASE on a server that has up to 4 cpu's Sybase considerers that a workgroup installation and
> it's a specific fee schedule per number of seats. Above 4 cpu's Sybase considerers that an
> enterprise installation and it's a different fee schedule per number of seats. Could you make the
> argument with Sybase that you're binding four cpu's (affinity) for sybase processes and the rest are
> used by some other application and the OS? Anyway, I was told to read the license agreement. Wish
> I could find it on Sybase's web site.
>
> Guy
>
> "Sethu M" <sethu@sybase.com> wrote in message news:MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com...
> > I did not quite get your point ?
> >
> > Please clarify.
> >
> > Sethu
> >
> > "Alan" <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3D3FE0C2.A7BB6102@hotmail.com...
> > >
> >
> > With the new pricing scheme of charging a fixed amount per CPU instead of
> > the
> > old seat licensing, one of the benefits of Sybase ASE the lower TCO compared
> > to
> > other database vendors is been removed. Maybe the goal of achieving
> > operational stability is already becoming too costly.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >


Mike Harrold Posted on 2002-07-30 16:17:10.0Z
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com>
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Article PK: 93522

In article <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com>,

Alan <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I have also been told that the licening agreement has changed. The
>supplier I contacted considers all
>Solaris machines as Enterprise installations no matter how many CPUs are
>in the machine. They then
>charge close to $40000 per CPU for ASE EBE 12.X. There is also a charge
>of around $1600 per CPU
>for the SDK license.
>There is a new ASE SBE 12.X license for installations that do not need
>any of the Options, this costs
>close to $10000 per CPU. We need the EBE edition instead of the SBE as
>the HA option is being used.
>
>Now the cheapest installation of Sybase ASE EBE is about $41600,
>excluding the HA option cost, running
>it on a 1 CPU Solaris Machine. Even if this machine was only a Solaris
>X1 that costs $995.
>This machine was previously clasified as workplace but even the
>Enterprise Edition was installed using
>the old licensing scheme. The base installation for $3995 with 5 seat
>licenses for $795 (these are the
>current proces taken from the Sybase Web site, I don't understand why
>the suppliers licensing and the
>Web site licensing are different) gives a total installation cost of
>under $8000.
>There seems to be more than a 500% price increase. This new licensing
>scheme does not appear to be
>designed to gain market share or to create a lower TCO.

Given that we're constantly talking to our Rep about licensing, I
believe that the dollar numbers you have are wrong. ASE is $25k/CPU
not $40k. Also, ASE is licensed by _engine_, not by the number of
CPUs on the box.

/Mike


Alan Posted on 2002-07-31 10:21:08.0Z
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Organization: Ltd
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Mike Harrold wrote:

> In article <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com>,
> Alan <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I have also been told that the licening agreement has changed. The
> >supplier I contacted considers all
> >Solaris machines as Enterprise installations no matter how many CPUs are
> >in the machine. They then
> >charge close to $40000 per CPU for ASE EBE 12.X. There is also a charge
> >of around $1600 per CPU
> >for the SDK license.
> >There is a new ASE SBE 12.X license for installations that do not need
> >any of the Options, this costs
> >close to $10000 per CPU. We need the EBE edition instead of the SBE as
> >the HA option is being used.
> >
> >Now the cheapest installation of Sybase ASE EBE is about $41600,
> >excluding the HA option cost, running
> >it on a 1 CPU Solaris Machine. Even if this machine was only a Solaris
> >X1 that costs $995.
> >This machine was previously clasified as workplace but even the
> >Enterprise Edition was installed using
> >the old licensing scheme. The base installation for $3995 with 5 seat
> >licenses for $795 (these are the
> >current proces taken from the Sybase Web site, I don't understand why
> >the suppliers licensing and the
> >Web site licensing are different) gives a total installation cost of
> >under $8000.
> >There seems to be more than a 500% price increase. This new licensing
> >scheme does not appear to be
> >designed to gain market share or to create a lower TCO.
>
> Given that we're constantly talking to our Rep about licensing, I
> believe that the dollar numbers you have are wrong. ASE is $25k/CPU
> not $40k. Also, ASE is licensed by _engine_, not by the number of
> CPUs on the box.
>
> /Mike

The quote I was sent stated the purchase price clearly as,
"$37930 for SYBASE ASE EBE /CPU, for Solaris". It is great
to hear that I was going to be over charged by almost $13930 for a
$25k license. Either that or your price is based on the old Enterprise
licensing costs for an unlimited number of seats.
I assumed that the per CPU licensing was based on the number of CPUs
that are being used by ASE but this was not stated in the quote.

Whether the new Solaris per CPU license is $25k or $37930 is not as
significant as the price increase introduced by classifying all Solaris
machines as Enterprise machines. Previously Solaris machines with 4 CPUs
or less were classified as Workplace machines.
The actual price increase is much worse than I stated in a previous message
for Solaris machines with up to 4 CPUs that will now be using ASE EBE.
A single CPU Solaris machine running ASE WP on one CPU with 5 seat
licenses, old cost, $1970, taken from the web. New cost either $25k or
$37930.

Regards,
Alan


Mike Harrold Posted on 2002-07-31 14:06:51.0Z
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <3D47BA14.AA8E45FC@hotmail.com>
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Article PK: 93517

In article <3D47BA14.AA8E45FC@hotmail.com>,

Alan <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Mike Harrold wrote:
>
>> In article <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com>,
>> Alan <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >I have also been told that the licening agreement has changed. The
>> >supplier I contacted considers all
>> >Solaris machines as Enterprise installations no matter how many CPUs are
>> >in the machine. They then
>> >charge close to $40000 per CPU for ASE EBE 12.X. There is also a charge
>> >of around $1600 per CPU
>> >for the SDK license.
>> >There is a new ASE SBE 12.X license for installations that do not need
>> >any of the Options, this costs
>> >close to $10000 per CPU. We need the EBE edition instead of the SBE as
>> >the HA option is being used.
>> >
>> >Now the cheapest installation of Sybase ASE EBE is about $41600,
>> >excluding the HA option cost, running
>> >it on a 1 CPU Solaris Machine. Even if this machine was only a Solaris
>> >X1 that costs $995.
>> >This machine was previously clasified as workplace but even the
>> >Enterprise Edition was installed using
>> >the old licensing scheme. The base installation for $3995 with 5 seat
>> >licenses for $795 (these are the
>> >current proces taken from the Sybase Web site, I don't understand why
>> >the suppliers licensing and the
>> >Web site licensing are different) gives a total installation cost of
>> >under $8000.
>> >There seems to be more than a 500% price increase. This new licensing
>> >scheme does not appear to be
>> >designed to gain market share or to create a lower TCO.
>>
>> Given that we're constantly talking to our Rep about licensing, I
>> believe that the dollar numbers you have are wrong. ASE is $25k/CPU
>> not $40k. Also, ASE is licensed by _engine_, not by the number of
>> CPUs on the box.
>>
>> /Mike
>
>The quote I was sent stated the purchase price clearly as,
>"$37930 for SYBASE ASE EBE /CPU, for Solaris". It is great
>to hear that I was going to be over charged by almost $13930 for a
>$25k license. Either that or your price is based on the old Enterprise
>licensing costs for an unlimited number of seats.
>I assumed that the per CPU licensing was based on the number of CPUs
>that are being used by ASE but this was not stated in the quote.
>
>Whether the new Solaris per CPU license is $25k or $37930 is not as
>significant as the price increase introduced by classifying all Solaris
>machines as Enterprise machines. Previously Solaris machines with 4 CPUs
>or less were classified as Workplace machines.
>The actual price increase is much worse than I stated in a previous message
>for Solaris machines with up to 4 CPUs that will now be using ASE EBE.
>A single CPU Solaris machine running ASE WP on one CPU with 5 seat
>licenses, old cost, $1970, taken from the web. New cost either $25k or
>$37930.
>
>Regards,
>Alan
>

Work with your sales rep. One thing Sybase is willing to do that Oracle
and IBM are (generally) not, is to negotiate. Use your current licensing
agreements to your advantage.

Although I am not a rep, nor a sybase employee of any kind, so anyone
feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that with the older licensing
you either licensed seats (for internal use) or engines/CPUs for
external use, but the latter also meant purchasing seats for your
internal users (developers, etc). The new "CPU" licensing is for both
external _and_ internal. At $795 a pop, the internal seat licensing can
very easily chew up that additional $13,000.

I also believe that you can still license IAL/seats. You do not have to
use the new CPU licensing (although new customers may have to?).

The reclassification from workplace to enterprise is probably due to all
the new hardware that Sun is producing in its Vx80 series that are
_significantly_ more powerful than the older machines. Still, I have to
agree that this seems like a bit of a money grab. It's the small shops
that keep Sybase alive.

One other thing. Whoever said that TCO for Oracle, DB2, Sybase and
MS SQL Server were effectively the same has obviously never administered
both Oracle and Sybase (or is a manager who has been hoodwinked by their
DBAs). Sybase is cheaper, much easier to use, far easier to administer,
does not require sending your DBAs to 5 or more classes to understand
what they're doing, crashes less often (yes, oracle _does_ crash when
pushed), has better replication and failover tools - need I say more?

/Mike


Jason Webster Posted on 2002-07-30 20:58:41.0Z
From: "Jason Webster" <jason.webster`@mail.state.ky.us>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:58:41 -0400
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Article PK: 93521

License agreements are getting to be like phone bills and corporate
accounting statements -- tedious to read and impossible to understand.

Frankly, I'm getting really tired of it.

--
Jason Webster

"Mike Harrold" <ao@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com...
> In article <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com>,
> Alan <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I have also been told that the licening agreement has changed. The
> >supplier I contacted considers all
> >Solaris machines as Enterprise installations no matter how many CPUs are
> >in the machine. They then
> >charge close to $40000 per CPU for ASE EBE 12.X. There is also a charge
> >of around $1600 per CPU
> >for the SDK license.
> >There is a new ASE SBE 12.X license for installations that do not need
> >any of the Options, this costs
> >close to $10000 per CPU. We need the EBE edition instead of the SBE as
> >the HA option is being used.
> >
> >Now the cheapest installation of Sybase ASE EBE is about $41600,
> >excluding the HA option cost, running
> >it on a 1 CPU Solaris Machine. Even if this machine was only a Solaris
> >X1 that costs $995.
> >This machine was previously clasified as workplace but even the
> >Enterprise Edition was installed using
> >the old licensing scheme. The base installation for $3995 with 5 seat
> >licenses for $795 (these are the
> >current proces taken from the Sybase Web site, I don't understand why
> >the suppliers licensing and the
> >Web site licensing are different) gives a total installation cost of
> >under $8000.
> >There seems to be more than a 500% price increase. This new licensing
> >scheme does not appear to be
> >designed to gain market share or to create a lower TCO.
>
> Given that we're constantly talking to our Rep about licensing, I
> believe that the dollar numbers you have are wrong. ASE is $25k/CPU
> not $40k. Also, ASE is licensed by _engine_, not by the number of
> CPUs on the box.
>
> /Mike


Guy Bourdon Posted on 2002-07-31 00:11:05.0Z
From: "Guy Bourdon" <scriptor@sympatico.ca>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <#hObw1AOCHA.195@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:11:05 -0400
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Let's face it. This is just a cash grab by Sybase. In the short run this will look good on their
books but in the long run it will be disaster. Imagine you're the procurement manager and you have a
choice between Sybase ASE, IBM DB2. Microsoft SQL Server and good ol' Oracle. Given that the TCO is
approximately the same for all except for Microsoft which can afford to give it's RDBMS away, would
you buy Sybase? Not likely given the human resources and support presently available on the market
for the other products. Any of these four products in the hands of a competent DBA will perform
well. No procurement manager will ever likely be called upon to truly justify his/her decision in
purchasing Oracle, Microsoft or IBM. That can't be said for Sybase.

If the playing field was level I would say that Sybase had a good chance at the run for the top
rung. Unfortunately it isn't. Oracle, Microsoft and IBM are the front runners in the home stretch
and Sybase looks like it's stalled in the starting blocks. If the strategy at Sybase is to turn
around the new revenue and pump it into marketing to increase their presence well it's too little
(or too much) and too late.

Personally the writing is on the wall. Sybase will be swallowed by one of the big three probably
Microsoft which will promptly label ASE as Microsoft SQL Server for UNIX platform and with their
marketing savvy will give the other two a run for their money. In the meantime ... back at Sybase
the directors are enjoying their windfall profits and bonuses waiting for the offer to come in ...

Guy

"Jason Webster" <jason.webster`@mail.state.ky.us> wrote in message
news:#hObw1AOCHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> License agreements are getting to be like phone bills and corporate
> accounting statements -- tedious to read and impossible to understand.
>
> Frankly, I'm getting really tired of it.
>
> --
> Jason Webster
>
> "Mike Harrold" <ao@shell.core.com> wrote in message
> news:cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com...
> > In article <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com>,
> > Alan <alan_westmeath@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >I have also been told that the licening agreement has changed. The
> > >supplier I contacted considers all
> > >Solaris machines as Enterprise installations no matter how many CPUs are
> > >in the machine. They then
> > >charge close to $40000 per CPU for ASE EBE 12.X. There is also a charge
> > >of around $1600 per CPU
> > >for the SDK license.
> > >There is a new ASE SBE 12.X license for installations that do not need
> > >any of the Options, this costs
> > >close to $10000 per CPU. We need the EBE edition instead of the SBE as
> > >the HA option is being used.
> > >
> > >Now the cheapest installation of Sybase ASE EBE is about $41600,
> > >excluding the HA option cost, running
> > >it on a 1 CPU Solaris Machine. Even if this machine was only a Solaris
> > >X1 that costs $995.
> > >This machine was previously clasified as workplace but even the
> > >Enterprise Edition was installed using
> > >the old licensing scheme. The base installation for $3995 with 5 seat
> > >licenses for $795 (these are the
> > >current proces taken from the Sybase Web site, I don't understand why
> > >the suppliers licensing and the
> > >Web site licensing are different) gives a total installation cost of
> > >under $8000.
> > >There seems to be more than a 500% price increase. This new licensing
> > >scheme does not appear to be
> > >designed to gain market share or to create a lower TCO.
> >
> > Given that we're constantly talking to our Rep about licensing, I
> > believe that the dollar numbers you have are wrong. ASE is $25k/CPU
> > not $40k. Also, ASE is licensed by _engine_, not by the number of
> > CPUs on the box.
> >
> > /Mike
>
>


aschon Posted on 2002-08-02 04:04:18.0Z
From: aschon@idx.com.au
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:04:18 -0400
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Message-ID: <0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <#hObw1AOCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <f6A#ugCOCHA.582@forums.sybase.com>
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Article PK: 93514

Hi Guy,

the price increases are indeed a pain. After years of contracting, my dream
was to buy a few Sun boxes of my own, and run some data processing
applications in my garage. I could have afforded $5000 for Sybase
licenses, but not $45000.

But there is another dimension, which wasn't mentioned yet in this thread,
although we all thought about it. Sybase has a large "mind share" among
the developer community. The Microsoft licensing ten years ago also helped
establish the trend. Gartner &Co. are only measuring the $-value of the
licensing fees Sybase is getting. They pay less atention to the thousands
of developers who are carriers of Syase knowledge. So, in the supposedly
"knowledge-based economy", we are given the wrong measure.

I share your concern about working with a platform which appears to be
losing the battle. I'm often critical of Sybase, for similar reasons. But,
I also have some positive words to say about Sybase.

Programming in Sybase is a data-centric experience. You can develop large
applications, without ever having to write a cursor. This focuses the
developer's mind on data and relationships, which is the main asset the
business has. When a developer talks about data, the business people
understand, since they deal with the same entities all day long.

Contrast this with Oracle development, which is largely a programmatic
experience. Oracle developers find themselves talking about functions,
packages, modularity, error handling, re-use, etc. All these well
established concepts of computer science. It's just that business doesn't
give a fig.

Over time, Sybase developers become analysts and knowledge workers. Oracle
developers become managers and bureaucrats. When measuring the ratio of
knowledge-to-cost, Sybase comes out better.

Andrew Schonberger


Guy Bourdon Posted on 2002-08-04 01:31:50.0Z
From: "Guy Bourdon" <scriptor@sympatico.ca>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <#hObw1AOCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <f6A#ugCOCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:31:50 -0400
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Article PK: 93509

Hi Andrew,

Case in point. I'm presently on contract with a department of the Canadian Federal Government where
we are developing and implementing an automated ticket creation and handling for all IT/IS system
incidents using Tivoli Enterprise Console and Remedy Action Request Systems. Recently the department
decided to replace part of the tasks accomplished by the Tivoli Enterprise Console with the IT
Masters MasterCell application. Unfortunately MasterCell provides database integration for real-time
event logging for Oracle, DB2 and MS SQL Server only. When asked about Sybase their reply was that
market share didn't warrant the development and porting expenses. Fortunately for Sybase ASE,
MasterCell has a native format data storage that we can batch load to Sybase ASE and management has
agreed to go that route for the time being. So Sybase survives for another day but for how long.
Even in the section I work right now the writing is on the wall. Feelings about Sybase at this time
are neutral but in the long run Sybase ASE will be perceived as an impediment to the evolution and
progress of the Enterprise System Management Section. Sybase has become a barrier and it will be
discarded as a server of choice because third party application vendors are not perceiving it as
part of or necessary to their integration solution. That's the bottom line. There is no way that
the Technical Authority/Architect can go back to the Division Director from this point on and
justify purchasing new Sybase ASE especially on TCO.

Guy

<aschon@idx.com.au> wrote in message
news:0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums...
> Hi Guy,
>
> the price increases are indeed a pain. After years of contracting, my dream
> was to buy a few Sun boxes of my own, and run some data processing
> applications in my garage. I could have afforded $5000 for Sybase
> licenses, but not $45000.
>
> But there is another dimension, which wasn't mentioned yet in this thread,
> although we all thought about it. Sybase has a large "mind share" among
> the developer community. The Microsoft licensing ten years ago also helped
> establish the trend. Gartner &Co. are only measuring the $-value of the
> licensing fees Sybase is getting. They pay less atention to the thousands
> of developers who are carriers of Syase knowledge. So, in the supposedly
> "knowledge-based economy", we are given the wrong measure.
>
> I share your concern about working with a platform which appears to be
> losing the battle. I'm often critical of Sybase, for similar reasons. But,
> I also have some positive words to say about Sybase.
>
> Programming in Sybase is a data-centric experience. You can develop large
> applications, without ever having to write a cursor. This focuses the
> developer's mind on data and relationships, which is the main asset the
> business has. When a developer talks about data, the business people
> understand, since they deal with the same entities all day long.
>
> Contrast this with Oracle development, which is largely a programmatic
> experience. Oracle developers find themselves talking about functions,
> packages, modularity, error handling, re-use, etc. All these well
> established concepts of computer science. It's just that business doesn't
> give a fig.
>
> Over time, Sybase developers become analysts and knowledge workers. Oracle
> developers become managers and bureaucrats. When measuring the ratio of
> knowledge-to-cost, Sybase comes out better.
>
> Andrew Schonberger


Andrew Schonberger Posted on 2002-08-05 08:23:23.0Z
Message-ID: <3D4E35FB.3DCDEF79@idx.com.au>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:23:23 +1000
From: Andrew Schonberger <aschon@idx.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <#hObw1AOCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <f6A#ugCOCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums> <rqAOHh1OCHA.259@forums.sybase.com>
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Article PK: 93506

Hi Guy,

your scenario sounds very familiar indeed. I work in Sydney in the finance industry.

>> Sybase survives for another day but for how long. <<

Oracle has trickled in at our site too. In terms of technology, it is probably my Oracle knowledge which
keeps me in my job, after many years of writing Transact/SQL. It's a sad day indeed.

You stepped on a nerve by mentioning Tivoli and Remedy, which we also have. With a bit of exageration,
I could say the issues of monitoring and incident recording get too much attention. Business feels as
if IT takes care of its own problems first. At some stage, we had many more people playing with
Tivoli alerts, than people talking to business. That was wrong, and many of those people are no longer
with us.

We came a long way from the original subject of this thread. Was nice to talk to you.

Andrew

Guy Bourdon wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> Case in point. I'm presently on contract with a department of the Canadian Federal Government where
> we are developing and implementing an automated ticket creation and handling for all IT/IS system
> incidents using Tivoli Enterprise Console and Remedy Action Request Systems. Recently the department
> decided to replace part of the tasks accomplished by the Tivoli Enterprise Console with the IT
> Masters MasterCell application. Unfortunately MasterCell provides database integration for real-time
> event logging for Oracle, DB2 and MS SQL Server only. When asked about Sybase their reply was that
> market share didn't warrant the development and porting expenses. Fortunately for Sybase ASE,
> MasterCell has a native format data storage that we can batch load to Sybase ASE and management has
> agreed to go that route for the time being. So Sybase survives for another day but for how long.
> Even in the section I work right now the writing is on the wall. Feelings about Sybase at this time
> are neutral but in the long run Sybase ASE will be perceived as an impediment to the evolution and
> progress of the Enterprise System Management Section. Sybase has become a barrier and it will be
> discarded as a server of choice because third party application vendors are not perceiving it as
> part of or necessary to their integration solution. That's the bottom line. There is no way that
> the Technical Authority/Architect can go back to the Division Director from this point on and
> justify purchasing new Sybase ASE especially on TCO.
>
> Guy
>
> <aschon@idx.com.au> wrote in message
> news:0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums...
> > Hi Guy,
> >
> > the price increases are indeed a pain. After years of contracting, my dream
> > was to buy a few Sun boxes of my own, and run some data processing
> > applications in my garage. I could have afforded $5000 for Sybase
> > licenses, but not $45000.
> >
> > But there is another dimension, which wasn't mentioned yet in this thread,
> > although we all thought about it. Sybase has a large "mind share" among
> > the developer community. The Microsoft licensing ten years ago also helped
> > establish the trend. Gartner &Co. are only measuring the $-value of the
> > licensing fees Sybase is getting. They pay less atention to the thousands
> > of developers who are carriers of Syase knowledge. So, in the supposedly
> > "knowledge-based economy", we are given the wrong measure.
> >
> > I share your concern about working with a platform which appears to be
> > losing the battle. I'm often critical of Sybase, for similar reasons. But,
> > I also have some positive words to say about Sybase.
> >
> > Programming in Sybase is a data-centric experience. You can develop large
> > applications, without ever having to write a cursor. This focuses the
> > developer's mind on data and relationships, which is the main asset the
> > business has. When a developer talks about data, the business people
> > understand, since they deal with the same entities all day long.
> >
> > Contrast this with Oracle development, which is largely a programmatic
> > experience. Oracle developers find themselves talking about functions,
> > packages, modularity, error handling, re-use, etc. All these well
> > established concepts of computer science. It's just that business doesn't
> > give a fig.
> >
> > Over time, Sybase developers become analysts and knowledge workers. Oracle
> > developers become managers and bureaucrats. When measuring the ratio of
> > knowledge-to-cost, Sybase comes out better.
> >
> > Andrew Schonberger


Carl Kayser Posted on 2002-08-02 14:45:21.0Z
From: "Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <MMqdtBANCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <912#uBDNCHA.196@forums.sybase.com> <3D418CDD.E23E3D33@hotmail.com> <cYMzOS#NCHA.306@forums.sybase.com> <#hObw1AOCHA.195@forums.sybase.com> <f6A#ugCOCHA.582@forums.sybase.com> <0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:45:21 -0400
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Article PK: 93511


<aschon@idx.com.au> wrote in message
news:0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums...
> Hi Guy,
>
> (snip)
>
> Programming in Sybase is a data-centric experience. You can develop large
> applications, without ever having to write a cursor. This focuses the
> developer's mind on data and relationships, which is the main asset the
> business has. When a developer talks about data, the business people
> understand, since they deal with the same entities all day long.
>
> Contrast this with Oracle development, which is largely a programmatic
> experience. Oracle developers find themselves talking about functions,
> packages, modularity, error handling, re-use, etc. All these well
> established concepts of computer science. It's just that business doesn't
> give a fig.
>

I don't know Oracle, but let's assume the above. What I don't understand is
your claim (in the next paragraph) as to the program-oriented people
becoming managers/bureaucrats whereas analysts don't. (However I'm not in a
mixed database environment.)

> Over time, Sybase developers become analysts and knowledge workers. Oracle
> developers become managers and bureaucrats. When measuring the ratio of
> knowledge-to-cost, Sybase comes out better.
>
> Andrew Schonberger


Andrew Schonberger Posted on 2002-08-03 00:14:06.0Z
Message-ID: <3D4B204E.DAECFD45@idx.com.au>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 10:14:06 +1000
From: Andrew Schonberger <aschon@idx.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U)
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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Carl,

you wrote:

> I don't understand your claim [...] as to the program-oriented people
> becoming managers/bureaucrats whereas analysts don't.

I realise I was using artistic exageration - a method well accepted in this
newsgroups, provided we don't take it too seriously. I recently contributed to a
PL/SQL project, and noticed their bureaucratic tendencies. It reminded me of the
late 80's era of large projects, written in low level languages like C, with
dozens of programmers chiseling away at modules and blocks. Nothing like the
easy delivery afforded by Sybase-Powerbuilder.

I am trying to introduce two elements into the debate. One is the aspect of
knowledge and mind-share. The second is data-oriented vs program-oriented.
Talking about product futures, I wouldn't like the resources of Sybase Inc.
being diverted to develop Transact-SQL into a fully modular language. ( Just
give me multi-version concurrency, and I'll never need anything else .. ah, back
on my old soap-box ).

To some extent, I am disillusioned by the good old program-oriented concepts. I
was a devout follower for many years. But time and again, I am finding I can
make a much greater contribution on the data-oriented front. I can sit in a room
with stockbrokers and accountants, discussing corporate data and business
processes. Everyone understands, everyone wants more ( they are even willing to
pay my rates...). Throw in a cheap reliable Sybase server, and often the
solution is available within weeks if not days. I'd like to keep Sybase this
way.

Andrew Schonberger

Carl Kayser wrote:

> <aschon@idx.com.au> wrote in message
> news:0D7321BE0171110800165DCF85256C09.0004847F85256C07@webforums...
> > Hi Guy,
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > Programming in Sybase is a data-centric experience. You can develop large
> > applications, without ever having to write a cursor. This focuses the
> > developer's mind on data and relationships, which is the main asset the
> > business has. When a developer talks about data, the business people
> > understand, since they deal with the same entities all day long.
> >
> > Contrast this with Oracle development, which is largely a programmatic
> > experience. Oracle developers find themselves talking about functions,
> > packages, modularity, error handling, re-use, etc. All these well
> > established concepts of computer science. It's just that business doesn't
> > give a fig.
> >
>
> I don't know Oracle, but let's assume the above. What I don't understand is
> your claim (in the next paragraph) as to the program-oriented people
> becoming managers/bureaucrats whereas analysts don't. (However I'm not in a
> mixed database environment.)
>
> > Over time, Sybase developers become analysts and knowledge workers. Oracle
> > developers become managers and bureaucrats. When measuring the ratio of
> > knowledge-to-cost, Sybase comes out better.
> >
> > Andrew Schonberger


Carl Kayser Posted on 2002-08-03 13:50:35.0Z
From: "Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:50:35 -0400
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Thanks for your clarification.

I suspect that it boils down to corporate cultures. Your description ("I
can sit in a room with stockbrokers and accountants, discussing corporate
data and business processes. Everyone understands, everyone wants more
they are even willing to pay my rates...).") would seem to make it easier
for you to be
promoted (versus a program-oriented person) if you were a direct worker
versus a
contractor/consultant.

Again, I've only been at one (US government) location so have a very limited
perspective. We can't get the cream-of-the-crop college computer science
hires. But we realize that the ability to work with people and communicate
well
are very important. So there are a few people with computer science or math
backgrounds and a lot of developers/analysts with non-technical degrees.
One of our best has degrees
in English and we had a run on Philosophy PhDs about twenty years ago.
We've also had some very technical people whose code turned out to be very,
very difficult to maintain.

"Andrew Schonberger" <aschon@idx.com.au> wrote in message
news:3D4B204E.DAECFD45@idx.com.au...
> Carl,
>
> you wrote:
>
> > I don't understand your claim [...] as to the program-oriented people
> > becoming managers/bureaucrats whereas analysts don't.
>
> I realise I was using artistic exageration - a method well accepted in
this
> newsgroups, provided we don't take it too seriously. I recently
contributed to a
> PL/SQL project, and noticed their bureaucratic tendencies. It reminded me
of the
> late 80's era of large projects, written in low level languages like C,
with
> dozens of programmers chiseling away at modules and blocks. Nothing like
the
> easy delivery afforded by Sybase-Powerbuilder.
>
> I am trying to introduce two elements into the debate. One is the aspect
of
> knowledge and mind-share. The second is data-oriented vs program-oriented.
> Talking about product futures, I wouldn't like the resources of Sybase
Inc.
> being diverted to develop Transact-SQL into a fully modular language.
Just
> give me multi-version concurrency, and I'll never need anything else ..
ah, back
> on my old soap-box ).
>
> To some extent, I am disillusioned by the good old program-oriented
concepts. I
> was a devout follower for many years. But time and again, I am finding I
can
> make a much greater contribution on the data-oriented front. I can sit in
a room
> with stockbrokers and accountants, discussing corporate data and business
> processes. Everyone understands, everyone wants more ( they are even
willing to
> pay my rates...). Throw in a cheap reliable Sybase server, and often the
> solution is available within weeks if not days. I'd like to keep Sybase
this
> way.
>
> Andrew Schonberger
>


Matt Rogish Posted on 2002-07-23 16:20:44.0Z
From: "Matt Rogish" <matt@fanhome.com>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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You had me at 'Hello'! :)

Keep up the GREAT work,

--
Matt
matt@fanhome.com

"Sethu M" <sethu@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:3AkdRegMCHA.349@forums.sybase.com...
> We are working on making ASE a unstoppable server with features
> that will not only prevent corruption but also can dynamically
> fix them on the fly.
>
> Regards,
> Sethu


Michael Peppler Posted on 2002-07-23 14:48:51.0Z
From: Michael Peppler <mpeppler@peppler.org>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:48:51 -0700
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On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:00:42 -0700, Sethu M wrote:

> Frank,
>
> One of our immediate goal is to provide stability on the operational
> variability. This includes hardening in the code to prevent corruptions.
> Sybase is very diligent in making ESDs and IRs available to our
> customers.
>
> We are working on near team
>
> a) making HouseKeeper GC and REORG work better b) provide a faster way
> to run update statistics
> (a sampling based statistics option)
> c) multiple tempdb support
> d) Virtual tables that have monitoring info with drill down
>
> all of the above scheduled to be released for 4Q 12.5.0.X release
>
> Since 11.0 version, we have made it rule #1 that any internal
> corruptions, system down, stacktrace all are treated as P1 bug and has
> to be fixed before the product is shipped.
>
> Your observations are correct about Oracle/DB2 in that they exchange big
> bucks. But the subsequent expectations based on the initial entry money
> paid may be just expectations. I'm not sure the expectations have been
> met in all the customer scenarios. Sybase is much more reactive to
> customer issues than our competitors.
>
> We are working on making ASE a unstoppable server with features that
> will not only prevent corruption but also can dynamically fix them on
> the fly.

Hear, hear!

Michael
--
Michael Peppler / mpeppler@peppler.org / http://www.mbay.net/~mpeppler
mpeppler@zetatools.com / ZetaTools, Inc / http://www.zetatools.com
ZetaTools: Call perl functions as Sybase stored procedures!


species8472 Posted on 2002-07-22 11:11:30.0Z
From: "species8472" <species8427@GEENZULT.thedominion.cc>
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Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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Article PK: 93549

so true

--
Joop

"The trouble with the concept of time is,
there is no such thing as time,
there is only an unlimited permutation of now"

http://thedominion.cc

"Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY> wrote in
message news:EPjTLAWMCHA.317@forums.sybase.com...
>
>
> I suppose you've found yourself at the unlucky end of an ASE bug --
> it's always hard to argue that ASE is really a good product to someone
> who's just seen production break down.
> However, you seem to suggest that this sort of thing wouldn't happen
> to Oracle or DB2 -- and I don't believe that's true. Being software,
> those products have their bugs and weaknesses as well (just ask
> eBay...). If the stars happen to be lined up the wrong way, you'll hit
> a bug in *any* piece of software...
> Having said that, Sybase should obviously fix this bug (and the
> follow-on problems) - I'm sure you've opened a case.
>
> Keep the faith!
>
> Rob V.
>
>
> "Frank_Hamersley" <terabite@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:jL07GIRMCHA.195@forums.sybase.com...
> > "Rob Verschoor" and SpeciesXXXX wrote
> > > That's an interesting viewpoint. There are banks (and other
> companies)
> > > that *do* rely on ASE for that sort of thing. Do you
> > > know something the rest of us don't ?
> >
> > I am aware of the penetration of Sybase into Financial Markets and
> > Banking. As it happens I work in the field (Treasury) on ASE 12.0
> at the
> > moment and appreciate the benefits the product offers - I quite like
> it and
> > appreciate the skill of the people who have got it to where it is
> thus far!
> >
> > However just last night, in the middle of an EOD roll processing
> run - ASE
> > left the real world and joined the faeries yet again! A 2628 error
> occurred
> > and all the worker spids were subsequently timesliced into oblivion
> over 25
> > minutes taken to crash dump! Restoration of online databases
> required
> > operator intervention and another 38 minutes. Because it was
> observed
> > promptly the end users did not detect a problem (our end of day
> stream
> > takes a few hours and we only have to be online by 7:00 AM so we
> have lots
> > of slack). It would be a different story if we happen to have a
> much bigger
> > end of day run and only 1 hour slack!
> >
> > We had (in the past) applied HA to this system and found it detected
> the
> > problem and took the appropriate action (and this was a good thing)!
> But we
> > also ran into trouble when doing routine dumps because HA got
> spooked by the
> > dataservers going a bit quiet and so it zapped the server on a false
> > positive -
> > arrghh! The IT types here were so traumatised that they butchered
> HA even
> > though I tried to explain the circumstances and describe how we
> could manage
> > this behaviour to keep HA in the picture! It shouldn't be this hard
> if its
> > truly
> > an enterprise grade product.
> >
> > We are attempting to address this (2628 error)! ESD #2 is getting a
> workout
> > on our test system as I write and if it proves not to be retrograde
> after
> > this weekends db reorgs it most likely will get into prod on Monday.
> >
> > Some portion of this set of "problems" is in my view directly linked
> to ASE
> > using a cooperative multi tasking engine! Based on previous tangles
> with
> > timeslice problems it became apparent if you start an (perhaps
> > unconscionably) long query that manages to get its objects held in
> cache its
> > a candidate for timeslicing because the sucker doesn't reliably
> yield!!!!
> > I personally don't feel that "apparently not having found all the
> places
> > where
> > we need to yield" is quite deterministic enough for me.
> >
> > So, if you want to run a "tier 1 retail bank" by which I meant an
> > international or national branch network handling cash, cheques,
> > ATMs, net banking, mortgages, business services and more in an
> integrated
> > systems solution for 000,000s of customer contacts per day (ie. not
> some
> > regional or state level operation) far be it from me to hold you
> back.
> >
> > I realise you can apply resources (big money) to address many of
> these type
> > of "issues" but then what differentiates that from IBM and Oracle
> (except
> > feature list latency on some occasions). I don't expect too many
> > boards will allow you the luxury of "sorting out just a few more
> gremlins"
> > when
> > they want to be in business today. Anyone who has managed to
> achieve stuff
> > like the above has no doubt invested big time in understanding the
> > technology - wouldn't it be better to devote those resources to the
> business
> > itself?
> >
> > At the end of it all I think I am a realist rather than a cynic. And
> that
> > won't stop me from championing Sybase where it is an appropriate
> option, but
> > by the same token I would be hard pushed to recommend it as a "4
> seasons"
> > product for the top end of town (yet) even if there are some success
> stories
> > out there.
> >
> > Feel free to try and change my thinking if you want!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Frank.
> > E&OE ;-)
> >
> >
> >
>


species8472 Posted on 2002-07-17 17:41:27.0Z
From: "species8472" <species8427@GEENZULT.thedominion.cc>
References: <K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Does Sybase have a product future?
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"Guy Bourdon" <scriptor@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:K9AEaXYLCHA.306@forums.sybase.com...
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at market shares in RDBMS (Gardner Report) and I'm perplexed
by what I read. Gardner
> considers Sybase a niche player. I would have thought that with Sybase's
product line that they were
> anything but a niche player.

Gardner and many other analists are as usual only looking at small aspects
of the database market, if you look sybase you should look at ASE for
typically the unix market, ASA as a compettior to Micky$oft, and IQ in the
datawarehouse market. If you add up all those numbers Sybase beats all other
players.
Also niches are not bad, they can be verry lucrative, and sybase has a verry
firm hold within the financial/governamental/telecom and healthcare market.

>
> http://www4.gartner.com/5_about/press_releases/2002_05/pr20020507a.jsp
>
> Is Sybase loosing this marketing battle and will it eventually disappear
off the chart?

eventually any company will dissapear of the chart, even Mick$oft and IBM,
anybody who knows how markets will develop will be a rich man.

>
> There's an old saying ' build a better mouse trap and the world will beat
a path to your door'. I
> don't have any extensive experience with other RDBMS products than ASE and
I'm wondering if it is an
> inferior product and should I move on to other RDBMS to secure my future
as an independent\

If anything ASE/ASA/IQ ar far superior to any of the major players, and
what's more importent nowadays, have a far lower TCO.

> contractor. I tried to find some impartial comparison in implementation
and maintenance between
> RDBMS vendors to no avail. Nor could I find any comparison from the point
of view of management for
> DBAs. The publishing industry is also staying away from Sybase products.

There are not that many publications on sybase rdbms because they are so
simple to maintain that the standard manuals are sufficient, try making a
life backup of an oracle database, it's so complicated and unriliable you'll
need a library of documentation to get a handle on it.

>
> How does Sybases' ASE truly compare with other products?

It's cheaper, faster, easier to maintain, what more do you want.

>
> Is the writing on the wall for Sybase..

If ever Sybase would get a marketing department, they could beat the pants
of any other supplier.

>
> Guy
>

my 2 (eurocents)

--
Joop

"The trouble with the concept of time is,
there is no such thing as time,
there is only an unlimited permutation of now"

http://thedominion.cc