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Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE

30 posts in Product Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2003-02-27 22:27:37.0Z
Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-01-29 19:04:44.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
Subject: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:04:44 -0700
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Article PK: 93355

ASE Users,

Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE that
will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE. With the
first release users will be able to create their own jobs and schedule them
to run on different ASEs. As part of the first release we would like to
provide some prepackage scripts (TSQL), known as templates, for which users
provide parameter values and then schedule as jobs on an ASE. For example,
we are thinking that providing templates to back up the database or dump the
transaction log would be helpful. Users could create a job from the
template and schedule the job to run on ASE according to a time schedule
that works best for their environments. We are also looking into collection
and archival of performance data and being able to do analysis of this data
to make adjustments that will improve performance. Other ideas include
templates for running update statistics and reorg rebuild and
reconfiguration of resources.

Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit for
users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as soon as
possible. Also, let me know what you think of this feature. We realize
many of you might have scripts already and use cron to schedule them. Would
it be a benefit if you could do everything from within ASE? How could we
implement this feature to give DBAs the most assistance and relief for day
to day management activities.

Thanks!


Sherlock, Kevin Posted on 2003-02-11 20:26:18.0Z
Message-ID: <3E495C51.5638F1FC@qwest.com.nospam>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:26:18 -0600
From: "Sherlock, Kevin" <ksherlo@qwest.com.nospam>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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With the advent of the MDA tables, I've been wondering if we'll see the
equivalent of the Historical Server for MDA. If not, perhaps that
functionality could be rolled in here somewhere. IE:, templates for
capturing MDA information to either OS files, or user tables for
historical purposes. MDA tables are cleared after each reboot, so
perhaps the ability to periodically dump selected metrics, and then of
course at shutdown also.

These templates could also incorporate some of the historical server
concepts, such as session_id's, start and stop times, error handling,
filtering, alarming, etc.

Marion Morrison wrote:
>
> ASE Users,
>
> Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE that
> will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE. With the
> first release users will be able to create their own jobs and schedule them
> to run on different ASEs. As part of the first release we would like to
> provide some prepackage scripts (TSQL), known as templates, for which users
> provide parameter values and then schedule as jobs on an ASE. For example,
> we are thinking that providing templates to back up the database or dump the
> transaction log would be helpful. Users could create a job from the
> template and schedule the job to run on ASE according to a time schedule
> that works best for their environments. We are also looking into collection
> and archival of performance data and being able to do analysis of this data
> to make adjustments that will improve performance. Other ideas include
> templates for running update statistics and reorg rebuild and
> reconfiguration of resources.
>
> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit for
> users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as soon as
> possible. Also, let me know what you think of this feature. We realize
> many of you might have scripts already and use cron to schedule them. Would
> it be a benefit if you could do everything from within ASE? How could we
> implement this feature to give DBAs the most assistance and relief for day
> to day management activities.
>
> Thanks!


Download VCard ksherlo.vcf


LJ Posted on 2003-02-07 22:25:23.0Z
From: LJ
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:25:23 -0500
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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A couple of other things that might be useful would be:

A template to send email/pages for given events or our own custom events.
Writing scripts for emails are currently a pain.

A template to set up databases that need to be monitored for growth. I
would be useful to know the rate of growth and projected date when the
allocated database space would be filled.

Record Sysmon values in a table so they can be plotted over time.


j Posted on 2003-02-17 13:14:18.0Z
From: J
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:14:18 -0500
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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I could not agree more !

Allow sysmon to store it's results in a table. This is a must (ASE is a
database after all)

Furthermore SQL-based monitoring & actions will be a great thing.

Johan


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-27 22:06:01.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:06:01 -0700
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Johan,
I'm not sure what you mean by "SQL-based monitoring and actions." Would you
provide more details about what you are needing.

thanks,
Marion

<J> wrote in message
news:E2A80500B41884480048B89585256CD0.007E9BE385256CC6@webforums...
> I could not agree more !
>
> Allow sysmon to store it's results in a table. This is a must (ASE is a
> database after all)
>
> Furthermore SQL-based monitoring & actions will be a great thing.
>
> Johan


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-27 21:57:36.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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Thanks for the input. I've added the first two ideas to our working list.
The third one is currently a high priority for us already.

<LJ> wrote in message
news:DA4AB1B117CEABA2007B2C6C85256CC6.006D6B8485256CBD@webforums...
> A couple of other things that might be useful would be:
>
> A template to send email/pages for given events or our own custom events.
> Writing scripts for emails are currently a pain.
>
> A template to set up databases that need to be monitored for growth. I
> would be useful to know the rate of growth and projected date when the
> allocated database space would be filled.
>
> Record Sysmon values in a table so they can be plotted over time.


Peter Weighill Posted on 2003-02-04 14:21:19.0Z
From: "Peter Weighill" <noemail@noemail>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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Could be used for things like backups:
eg.
declare @dbdump_filename varchar(100)
select @dbdump_filename =
'e:\dumps\master\master_dbdump_'+convert(char(8), getdate(), 112)
dump database master to @dbdump_filename
go

but a script like that would be server dependant.
Adding a few extra functions which hold values that were configured when the
server was installed would be helpfull.

A function that returns the default dumps directory would be useful.
Another function that returns the path separator would be useful.

You could then have a script:
eg.
declare @dbdump_filename varchar(100)
select @dbdump_filename =
default_dump_path()+'master'+path_sep()+'master_dbdump_'+convert(char(8),
getdate(), 112)
dump database master to @dbdump_filename
go

This would then be quite useful for doing database dumps and would mean that
similar scripts could be used on all servers.

But one further function would be required is the ability to delete old
dumps.

e.g
declare @dbdump_filename varchar(100)
select @dbdump_filename =
default_dump_path()+'master'+path_sep()+'master_dbdump_'+convert(char(8),
dateadd(dd,-5,getdate()), 112)
deletedump @dbdump_filename
go


Peter Weighill Posted on 2003-02-04 14:34:39.0Z
From: "Peter Weighill" <noemail@noemail>
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Or even

declare @dbdump_filename varchar(100)
select @dbdump_filename =

default_dump_path()+'master'+path_sep()+'master_dbdump_'+convert(char(8),dat
eadd(dd,-5,getdate()), 112)
dump delete @dbdump_filename


"Peter Weighill" <noemail@noemail> wrote in message
news:K2Sw7sFzCHA.199@forums.sybase.com...

> e.g
> declare @dbdump_filename varchar(100)
> select @dbdump_filename =
> default_dump_path()+'master'+path_sep()+'master_dbdump_'+convert(char(8),
> dateadd(dd,-5,getdate()), 112)
> deletedump @dbdump_filename
> go


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2003-01-31 13:21:42.0Z
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Marion Morrison wrote:

> Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE that
> will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE. With the
> first release users will be able to create their own jobs and schedule them
> to run on different ASEs.

If you mean a job scheduler, I don't think there's much call for
this (except from MS whiners who don't have anything like Unix's
cron). An event handler might be more desirable.

> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit for
> users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as soon as
> possible. Also, let me know what you think of this feature. We realize
> many of you might have scripts already and use cron to schedule them. Would
> it be a benefit if you could do everything from within ASE?

I doubt it. T-SQL isn't very flexible and is feature poor. Most
of us would have fairly sophisticated scripts already in place
and would see no need to exchange them with something less
sophisticated.

-am © 2003


Pablo Sanchez Posted on 2003-01-31 21:24:58.0Z
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
From: Pablo Sanchez <pablo@dev.null>
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Anthony Mandic <am_is_not@start.com.au> wrote in
news:3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au:

> Marion Morrison wrote:
>
>> Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE
>> that will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE.
>> With the first release users will be able to create their own jobs and
>> schedule them to run on different ASEs.
>
> If you mean a job scheduler, I don't think there's much call for
> this (except from MS whiners who don't have anything like Unix's
> cron). An event handler might be more desirable.

I tend to disagree. I think there's a need for this because DBA's may
not necessarily have access to cron on the machine's that host their
data server.

>> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit
>> for users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as soon
>> as possible.

I'm not sure I follow. If it's a job scheduler, it should be able to
schedule _any_ DB task. I think it's fine to put a restriction that
it has to be a stored procedure. Perhaps using Oracle's DBMS_JOBS
utility as a basis for some core functionality may be in order. After
that, you can augment to give it the Sybase spin.

It would be ideal if the job scheduler could run system jobs as well
to address Anthony's point. I think normal security would need to
apply here because we have to be very careful to not introduce a
security hole.
--
Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
http://www.hpdbe.com


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-03 17:13:48.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:13:48 -0700
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Pablo,
Initially, the Job Scheduler feature will handle Transact-SQL jobs, and we
plan to follow that up with support for event triggered and shell script
jobs. What I was referring to, and was unclear about, is that Sybase is
providing some prepackaged templates that the user can use to create jobs.
For a simple example, a DBA might want to set up a job to dump the
transactions log based on it's size. Sybase provides a template that takes
the maxSize the log should reach before it is dumped. The DBA uses this
template to create a job and provides the value of maxSize and a schedule
for how often to check the log's size. This reduces the work required by
the DBA to create the job.

So what I was asking is what are the tasks that DBAs do day in and day out
to manage their databases for which Sybase could provide templates.

thanks,
Marion

"Pablo Sanchez" <pablo@dev.null> wrote in message
news:Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77...
> Anthony Mandic <am_is_not@start.com.au> wrote in
> news:3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au:
>
> > Marion Morrison wrote:
> >
> >> Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE
> >> that will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE.
> >> With the first release users will be able to create their own jobs and
> >> schedule them to run on different ASEs.
> >
> > If you mean a job scheduler, I don't think there's much call for
> > this (except from MS whiners who don't have anything like Unix's
> > cron). An event handler might be more desirable.
>
> I tend to disagree. I think there's a need for this because DBA's may
> not necessarily have access to cron on the machine's that host their
> data server.
>
> >> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit
> >> for users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as soon
> >> as possible.
>
> I'm not sure I follow. If it's a job scheduler, it should be able to
> schedule _any_ DB task. I think it's fine to put a restriction that
> it has to be a stored procedure. Perhaps using Oracle's DBMS_JOBS
> utility as a basis for some core functionality may be in order. After
> that, you can augment to give it the Sybase spin.
>
> It would be ideal if the job scheduler could run system jobs as well
> to address Anthony's point. I think normal security would need to
> apply here because we have to be very careful to not introduce a
> security hole.
> --
> Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
> http://www.hpdbe.com


Roger Loe Posted on 2003-02-04 07:08:45.0Z
From: "Roger Loe" <rogerl@sybase.co.za>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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> So what I was asking is what are the tasks that DBAs do day in and day out
> to manage their databases for which Sybase could provide templates.

How about templates for each database where you can set various different
update stats and recompile options for each table / sp - which the system
can then automatically schedule , run and log results ?

The same thing for databases for dbcc checks would be great

Roger


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-11 20:31:25.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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when you say the "the system can then automatically schedule," which
condition(s) would the system use to create the schedule? Are you thinking
of events triggering a run, rather than running based on a time schedule?

thanks for the input.
Marion

"Roger Loe" <rogerl@sybase.co.za> wrote in message
news:ZAQ555BzCHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > So what I was asking is what are the tasks that DBAs do day in and day
out
> > to manage their databases for which Sybase could provide templates.
>
> How about templates for each database where you can set various different
> update stats and recompile options for each table / sp - which the system
> can then automatically schedule , run and log results ?
>
> The same thing for databases for dbcc checks would be great
>
> Roger
>
>
>


Roger Loe Posted on 2003-02-12 14:26:53.0Z
From: "Roger Loe" <rogerl@sybase.co.za>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:26:53 +0200
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"Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:AfQ6A9g0CHA.351@forums.sybase.com...
> when you say the "the system can then automatically schedule," which
> condition(s) would the system use to create the schedule? Are you
thinking
> of events triggering a run, rather than running based on a time schedule?

both really :-) - but for starters I would settle for a time based scheduler


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-12 18:53:44.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
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Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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the user will be able to create the schedule for running the job in the
first release. For the second release we plan to support triggering jobs
based on events.

"Roger Loe" <rogerl@sybase.co.za> wrote in message
news:TgP1KUq0CHA.351@forums.sybase.com...
>
> "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in message
> news:AfQ6A9g0CHA.351@forums.sybase.com...
> > when you say the "the system can then automatically schedule," which
> > condition(s) would the system use to create the schedule? Are you
> thinking
> > of events triggering a run, rather than running based on a time
schedule?
>
> both really :-) - but for starters I would settle for a time based
scheduler
>
>


Shane_Glasheen Posted on 2003-02-13 12:51:21.0Z
From: Shane_Glasheen
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:51:21 -0500
Newsgroups: sybase.public.ase.product_futures_discussion
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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Hi Marion,

Have read a bit of this thread and it looks like a great idea.
We use Sybase very heavily, and also have MS SQL Server around
the place as well. It has "database maintenance plans" where
you can setup/automate backups, transaction log dumps, dbcc's,
update statistics, etc... just as you're suggesting. Might
be worth having a look at how they've done it ? Sorry if
someone else may have already said this...

Shane


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-27 22:27:37.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <3hjPIp6yCHA.293@forums.sybase.com> <ZAQ555BzCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <AfQ6A9g0CHA.351@forums.sybase.com> <TgP1KUq0CHA.351@forums.sybase.com> <l$e1Grs0CHA.59@forums.sybase.com> <95507AAC8E657C8B00469EB285256CCC.006E692485256CCB@webforums>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:27:37 -0700
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Shane,
thanks for the input. We do have a GUI interface and you can set up a DB
maintenance plan using templates and jobs, but it works a little
differently.

Marion

<Shane_Glasheen> wrote in message
news:95507AAC8E657C8B00469EB285256CCC.006E692485256CCB@webforums...
>
> Hi Marion,
>
> Have read a bit of this thread and it looks like a great idea.
> We use Sybase very heavily, and also have MS SQL Server around
> the place as well. It has "database maintenance plans" where
> you can setup/automate backups, transaction log dumps, dbcc's,
> update statistics, etc... just as you're suggesting. Might
> be worth having a look at how they've done it ? Sorry if
> someone else may have already said this...
>
> Shane


Rob Verschoor Posted on 2003-02-01 01:08:13.0Z
Reply-To: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
From: "Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 02:08:13 +0100
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> >> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit
> >> for users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as
soon
> >> as possible.
>
> I'm not sure I follow. If it's a job scheduler, it should be able to
> schedule _any_ DB task. I think it's fine to put a restriction that
> it has to be a stored procedure. Perhaps using Oracle's DBMS_JOBS
> utility as a basis for some core functionality may be in order. After
> that, you can augment to give it the Sybase spin.
>
> It would be ideal if the job scheduler could run system jobs as well
> to address Anthony's point. I think normal security would need to
> apply here because we have to be very careful to not introduce a
> security hole.
> --
> Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
> http://www.hpdbe.com

A job scheduler would be useful. However, please build it such that
anything that's running can easily be aborted at any time. Last thing we
want is that something's running which we cannot kill without rebooting
ASE.


In addition to the other suggestions, I think a 'helper' tool for
interpreting dbcc checkstorage result is useful. Currently, when
checkstorage finds errors, you have to figure out yourself how bad this is
and what you could do about it. I'd like a tool that spells it out for you:
it tells you the risks of the errors, and tells you which actions to take.
Just an sp_dbcc_* proc would be good enough.
I actually started working on something like this last year, but I didn't
get far because it would took too much time.

As for self-tuning, we'll have to get experience with the MDA tables in
12.5.0.3 first. Frankly, I'm a bit sceptical about the merits of
'self-tuning' or 'automatic tuning'; it easily sounds better than it really
is. If the workload patterns, and the changes in these patterns, are
well-understood, you may be able to model this and attach some automatic
reconfig actions to it.
In most other cases, 'automatic tuning' won't work, or may make things
worse. For example, badly written queries doing table scans cannot be
remedied by automatically adjusting some config options. What is needed
here is an application-level change, and that not somthing self-tuning can
do. Instead, a way is needed to intercept those queries and log 'm
somewhere.
IMO, the bulk of performance issues is on a level that requires
application-level intervention from a programmer or DBA.
Automated profiling (sampling/monitoring, whatever you call it) would be
much more beneficial than automatic tuning, as it could allow us to get a
beter idea of how our queries behave. The MDA tables in 12.5.0.3 hold some
promises here...

I may be a bit sceptic, but I've seen some of these things before. I recall
a case where a threshold would automatically allocate additional space for
the log if it got full. Guess what happened...
In fact, I'm very much in favor of additional tools and hooks for DBAs.
However, 'automatic tuning' strikes me as one of those solutions which
doesn't apply to our real problem.

My 2 cents,

Rob V.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Verschoor

Certified Sybase Professional DBA for ASE 12.5/12.0/11.5/11.0

Author of "The Complete Sybase ASE Quick Reference Guide"
Online orders accepted at http://www.sypron.nl/qr

mailto:rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY
http://www.sypron.nl
Sypron B.V., P.O.Box 10695, 2501HR Den Haag, The Netherlands
-------------------------------------------------------------


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-03 17:16:04.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <W$hiqEZyCHA.199@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:16:04 -0700
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Thanks Rob for the input. Rest assured that you will be able to stop an
automated job at any time. Also, you will be able to issue a command and
run it immediately as well at create a schedule for it to run on.

Marion

"Rob Verschoor" <rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY> wrote in
message news:W$hiqEZyCHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > >> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit
> > >> for users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as
> soon
> > >> as possible.
> >
> > I'm not sure I follow. If it's a job scheduler, it should be able to
> > schedule _any_ DB task. I think it's fine to put a restriction that
> > it has to be a stored procedure. Perhaps using Oracle's DBMS_JOBS
> > utility as a basis for some core functionality may be in order. After
> > that, you can augment to give it the Sybase spin.
> >
> > It would be ideal if the job scheduler could run system jobs as well
> > to address Anthony's point. I think normal security would need to
> > apply here because we have to be very careful to not introduce a
> > security hole.
> > --
> > Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
> > http://www.hpdbe.com
>
> A job scheduler would be useful. However, please build it such that
> anything that's running can easily be aborted at any time. Last thing we
> want is that something's running which we cannot kill without rebooting
> ASE.
>
>
> In addition to the other suggestions, I think a 'helper' tool for
> interpreting dbcc checkstorage result is useful. Currently, when
> checkstorage finds errors, you have to figure out yourself how bad this is
> and what you could do about it. I'd like a tool that spells it out for
you:
> it tells you the risks of the errors, and tells you which actions to take.
> Just an sp_dbcc_* proc would be good enough.
> I actually started working on something like this last year, but I didn't
> get far because it would took too much time.
>
> As for self-tuning, we'll have to get experience with the MDA tables in
> 12.5.0.3 first. Frankly, I'm a bit sceptical about the merits of
> 'self-tuning' or 'automatic tuning'; it easily sounds better than it
really
> is. If the workload patterns, and the changes in these patterns, are
> well-understood, you may be able to model this and attach some automatic
> reconfig actions to it.
> In most other cases, 'automatic tuning' won't work, or may make things
> worse. For example, badly written queries doing table scans cannot be
> remedied by automatically adjusting some config options. What is needed
> here is an application-level change, and that not somthing self-tuning can
> do. Instead, a way is needed to intercept those queries and log 'm
> somewhere.
> IMO, the bulk of performance issues is on a level that requires
> application-level intervention from a programmer or DBA.
> Automated profiling (sampling/monitoring, whatever you call it) would be
> much more beneficial than automatic tuning, as it could allow us to get a
> beter idea of how our queries behave. The MDA tables in 12.5.0.3 hold some
> promises here...
>
> I may be a bit sceptic, but I've seen some of these things before. I
recall
> a case where a threshold would automatically allocate additional space for
> the log if it got full. Guess what happened...
> In fact, I'm very much in favor of additional tools and hooks for DBAs.
> However, 'automatic tuning' strikes me as one of those solutions which
> doesn't apply to our real problem.
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> Rob V.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Rob Verschoor
>
> Certified Sybase Professional DBA for ASE 12.5/12.0/11.5/11.0
>
> Author of "The Complete Sybase ASE Quick Reference Guide"
> Online orders accepted at http://www.sypron.nl/qr
>
> mailto:rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY
> http://www.sypron.nl
> Sypron B.V., P.O.Box 10695, 2501HR Den Haag, The Netherlands
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>


Pablo Sanchez Posted on 2003-02-08 04:47:03.0Z
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
From: Pablo Sanchez <pablo@dev.null>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <W$hiqEZyCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <Ic84Xq6yCHA.293@forums.sybase.com>
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"Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in news:Ic84Xq6yCHA.293
@forums.sybase.com:

> Thanks Rob for the input. Rest assured that you will be able to
> stop an automated job at any time. Also, you will be able to issue
> a command and run it immediately as well at create a schedule for it
> to run on.

... and suspend too I hope. :)

suspend = stop executing this job for now but keep the data around.

Thx!
--
Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
http://www.hpdbe.com


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-11 21:15:21.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <W$hiqEZyCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <Ic84Xq6yCHA.293@forums.sybase.com> <Xns931BDA5853986pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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Pablo,

We don't have a suspend feature in the first release, but would be
interested in your thoughts on this. In particular, I'm wondering if you
think of suspending a job as stopping it part way through its execution and
the being able to resume execution at the point at which it stopped at some
future time (question: what would trigger the resumption). When you say
keep the data around, do you mean internal job data, for example values used
within the job, or are you referring to information need to run the job,
i.e., job metadata. If you mean the later, that data is always kept unless
the user deletes the job.

Conceptually, suspend might be possible if the suspend action is implemented
within the job. At present the Job Scheduler is the initiator of the job
and once the job is started has no interaction with how the job works.

Marion

"Pablo Sanchez" <pablo@dev.null> wrote in message
news:Xns931BDA5853986pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77...
> "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in news:Ic84Xq6yCHA.293
> @forums.sybase.com:
>
> > Thanks Rob for the input. Rest assured that you will be able to
> > stop an automated job at any time. Also, you will be able to issue
> > a command and run it immediately as well at create a schedule for it
> > to run on.
>
> ... and suspend too I hope. :)
>
> suspend = stop executing this job for now but keep the data around.
>
> Thx!
> --
> Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
> http://www.hpdbe.com


Pablo Sanchez Posted on 2003-02-11 21:51:14.0Z
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
From: Pablo Sanchez <pablo@dev.null>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <W$hiqEZyCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <Ic84Xq6yCHA.293@forums.sybase.com> <Xns931BDA5853986pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <xrcnlVh0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com>
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Article PK: 93335

"Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in
news:xrcnlVh0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com:

> Pablo,
>
> We don't have a suspend feature in the first release, but would be
> interested in your thoughts on this.

Marion,

First of all, if I haven't said so, thanks for asking the community
the chance to provide feedback. Very cool.

What I'm thinking is something very simple. Say I have ten jobs that
are running periodically. I may wish to have one of the jobs not run
for a period of time because the job is broken and I'm tired of
getting error messages. What I'd like to do is take that particular
job and 'suspend' or make it 'inactive' In other words, all the
scheduling criteria (data) is still there but the ASE job scheduler
ignores it because its status is 'inactive'

From a Unix perspective, it'd be the same as me putting a '#' in front
of a task in my cron file.

HTH!
--
Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
http://www.hpdbe.com


Marion Morrison Posted on 2003-02-12 18:51:11.0Z
Reply-To: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
From: "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <3E3A7866.94AEF641@start.com.au> <Xns93148F70D217Cpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <W$hiqEZyCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <Ic84Xq6yCHA.293@forums.sybase.com> <Xns931BDA5853986pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <xrcnlVh0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com> <Xns931F93D35176Dpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:51:11 -0700
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Pablo,

There will be an ability to suspend jobs in the manner you suggest in the
first release. Thanks for the feedback.

Marion

"Pablo Sanchez" <pablo@dev.null> wrote in message
news:Xns931F93D35176Dpingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77...
> "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in
> news:xrcnlVh0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com:
>
> > Pablo,
> >
> > We don't have a suspend feature in the first release, but would be
> > interested in your thoughts on this.
>
> Marion,
>
> First of all, if I haven't said so, thanks for asking the community
> the chance to provide feedback. Very cool.
>
> What I'm thinking is something very simple. Say I have ten jobs that
> are running periodically. I may wish to have one of the jobs not run
> for a period of time because the job is broken and I'm tired of
> getting error messages. What I'd like to do is take that particular
> job and 'suspend' or make it 'inactive' In other words, all the
> scheduling criteria (data) is still there but the ASE job scheduler
> ignores it because its status is 'inactive'
>
> From a Unix perspective, it'd be the same as me putting a '#' in front
> of a task in my cron file.
>
> HTH!
> --
> Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
> http://www.hpdbe.com


Eugene Korolkov Posted on 2003-01-31 19:13:42.0Z
Message-ID: <3E3ACAE5.E6EA103A@davidsohn.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:13:42 -0500
From: Eugene Korolkov <ekorolkov@davidsohn.com>
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To: Marion Morrison <mmorriso@sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
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Marion,

I think that you should take a look on 3-rd party GUI tools like Embarcadero's
products and freeware web sites like Ed Barlow's and other famous gurus.
From them you definitely could get a lot of ideas which jobs templates to
create.

Regards,
Eugene

Marion Morrison wrote:

> ASE Users,
>
> Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE that
> will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE. With the
> first release users will be able to create their own jobs and schedule them
> to run on different ASEs. As part of the first release we would like to
> provide some prepackage scripts (TSQL), known as templates, for which users
> provide parameter values and then schedule as jobs on an ASE. For example,
> we are thinking that providing templates to back up the database or dump the
> transaction log would be helpful. Users could create a job from the
> template and schedule the job to run on ASE according to a time schedule
> that works best for their environments. We are also looking into collection
> and archival of performance data and being able to do analysis of this data
> to make adjustments that will improve performance. Other ideas include
> templates for running update statistics and reorg rebuild and
> reconfiguration of resources.
>
> Sybase wants to know what types of jobs would be of the most benefit for
> users. Please send my your ideas (prioritized if possible) as soon as
> possible. Also, let me know what you think of this feature. We realize
> many of you might have scripts already and use cron to schedule them. Would
> it be a benefit if you could do everything from within ASE? How could we
> implement this feature to give DBAs the most assistance and relief for day
> to day management activities.
>
> Thanks!


Carl Kayser Posted on 2003-01-29 19:14:35.0Z
From: "Carl Kayser" <kayser_c@bls.gov>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:14:35 -0500
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Just for clarity. Would this feature be provided by Sybase or do you work
for a third-party vendor?

"Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com...
> ASE Users,
>
> Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE
that
> will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE. With the
> first release users will be able to create their own jobs and schedule
them
> to run on different ASEs. (SNIP)


Bret Halford Posted on 2003-01-29 20:09:48.0Z
Message-ID: <3E38350C.243F55AF@sybase.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:09:48 -0700
From: Bret Halford <bret@sybase.com>
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
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Article PK: 93353

Marion works for sybase.

-bret

Carl Kayser wrote:
>
> Just for clarity. Would this feature be provided by Sybase or do you work
> for a third-party vendor?
>
> "Marion Morrison" <mmorriso@sybase.com> wrote in message
> news:Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com...
> > ASE Users,
> >
> > Hi, my name is Marion Morrison and I'm working on a new feature for ASE
> that
> > will allow users to automate tuning and managment tasks in ASE. With the
> > first release users will be able to create their own jobs and schedule
> them
> > to run on different ASEs. (SNIP)


David L. Cherin Posted on 2003-02-18 18:56:49.0Z
From: "David L. Cherin" <david.cherin@whitesands.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:56:49 -0800
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Article PK: 93360

Hello,

White Sands's product, ProActive DBA, has had a task scheduler with
automated database maintenance solutions for ASE since 1996. Many of the
features such as reorging tables, update statistics, etc. are designed to
only occur when user-defined thresholds are met. Reports are also provided
to predict future maintenance requirements based on past trends.

Other 3rd party vendors such as Embarcadero, Lecco Tech, BMC and SQL Power
Tools currently provide very good solutions for DBAs that are graphical. As
a whole, the solutions 3rd party vendors provide cover daily database
administration, job scheduling, backup, data recovery, maintenance and
performance tuning.

Some of the new features added to ASE in the past few years are very useful.
Some, however, do not provide graphical interfaces. ribo, optdiag, MDA
tables, to name a few. The same functionality has been available through
3rd party vendors for many years but also included are graphical user
interfaces, historical capabilities and ease of use and setup.

This trend is very good for Sybase customers. My question is this: do
Sybase's customers prefer to build their own in-house solutions (graphical,
Perl, TSQL) and historical trending mechanisms to take advantage of these
new tools being offered with ASE or do you think 3rd party solutions are
worth the added expense for maintaining ASE?

Thanks,

David L. Cherin
White Sands Technology, Inc.
http://www.proactivedba.com


Pablo Sanchez Posted on 2003-02-18 23:49:50.0Z
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
From: Pablo Sanchez <pablo@dev.null>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <LB9qKK41CHA.142@forums.sybase.com>
Organization: High-Performance Database Engineering
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"David L. Cherin" <david.cherin@whitesands.com> wrote in
news:LB9qKK41CHA.142@forums.sybase.com:

> This trend is very good for Sybase customers. My question is this:
> do Sybase's customers prefer to build their own in-house solutions
> (graphical, Perl, TSQL) and historical trending mechanisms to take
> advantage of these new tools being offered with ASE or do you think
> 3rd party solutions are worth the added expense for maintaining ASE?

FWIW, I prefer to use off-the-shelf when I can, provided the tools are
accurate and useful. Having said that, I haven't had a chance to use
your product because in the past, the shops I've been at have been
pure Unix and I believe, your product (at the time?) required a
Windows box.

Thx!
--
Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
http://www.hpdbe.com


David L. Cherin Posted on 2003-02-18 23:47:50.0Z
From: "David L. Cherin" <david.cherin@whitesands.com>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <LB9qKK41CHA.142@forums.sybase.com> <Xns9326A7E28978pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77>
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Article PK: 93363

A few years back, the trend was for 3rd party vendors to add multiple RDBMS
support to their product lines. My crystal ball isn't as good as others and
I wanted to see if we're experiencing a new trend...

Thanks. And by the way, our products use Windows as the GUI. We have
server-side Agents that do most of the work.

"Pablo Sanchez" <pablo@dev.null> wrote in message
news:Xns9326A7E28978pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77...
> FWIW, I prefer to use off-the-shelf when I can, provided the tools are
> accurate and useful. Having said that, I haven't had a chance to use
> your product because in the past, the shops I've been at have been
> pure Unix and I believe, your product (at the time?) required a
> Windows box.
>
> Thx!
> --
> Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
> http://www.hpdbe.com


Pablo Sanchez Posted on 2003-02-19 00:20:27.0Z
Subject: Re: Need input for self-mgmt tasks in ASE
From: Pablo Sanchez <pablo@dev.null>
References: <Qla#rv8xCHA.254@forums.sybase.com> <LB9qKK41CHA.142@forums.sybase.com> <Xns9326A7E28978pingottpingottbah@199.93.177.77> <ubDnyr61CHA.199@forums.sybase.com>
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"David L. Cherin" <david.cherin@whitesands.com> wrote in
news:ubDnyr61CHA.199@forums.sybase.com:

> Thanks. And by the way, our products use Windows as the GUI. We
> have server-side Agents that do most of the work.

Certainly makes sense ... I wouldn't advocate the viewer to be ported
onto a Unix environment. Maybe Linux. <g>
--
Pablo Sanchez, High-Performance Database Engineering
http://www.hpdbe.com