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Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.

17 posts in Product Futures Discussion Last posting was on 2003-01-04 03:32:34.0Z
Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-26 18:15:53.0Z
Reply-To: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
From: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
Subject: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:15:53 -0700
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Article PK: 93391

Hi,
I'd really like to have a solution to coalesce the devices, it's really
time consuming to manually find the space in the existing devices or build
new ones. This is a problem with databases that have 150+ fragments and
where we have to recreate them in different servers (QA, DEV,etc)

In Example:

Create Database Database_X on
data38=1000
,data24=2000
,data36=300
,data36=300
,data36=400
,data37=500
,data37=500
,data37=500
,data37=500
,data38=500
,data38=500
log on log2=100
,log2=100
go


Optimized would be:

Create Database Database_X on
data38=2000
,data24=2000
,data36=1000
,data37=2000
log on log2=200
go


I'm sure this is not the first request to have this done. But I can't find
anything anywhere. If anyone knows of a place I can find some info about
this you'd make my xmas. ; -)
Any word from Sybase to solve this?

Bye
Gaspar G.


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-12-28 10:08:19.0Z
Message-ID: <3E0D7813.122B15E7@start.com.au>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:08:19 +1100
From: Anthony Mandic <am_is_not@start.com.au>
Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:

> I'd really like to have a solution to coalesce the devices, it's really
> time consuming to manually find the space in the existing devices or build
> new ones. This is a problem with databases that have 150+ fragments and
> where we have to recreate them in different servers (QA, DEV,etc)

I fail to see what the problem is. A load of a dump will coalesce like
fragments.

> In Example:
>
> Create Database Database_X on
> data38=1000
> ,data24=2000
> ,data36=300
> ,data36=300
> ,data36=400
> ,data37=500
> ,data37=500
> ,data37=500
> ,data37=500
> ,data38=500
> ,data38=500
> log on log2=100
> ,log2=100
>
> Optimized would be:
>
> Create Database Database_X on
> data38=2000

This should be data38=1000 since the fragments need to be adjacent.

> ,data24=2000
> ,data36=1000
> ,data37=2000

You left out data38=1000 here.

> log on log2=200
>
> I'm sure this is not the first request to have this done. But I can't find
> anything anywhere. If anyone knows of a place I can find some info about
> this you'd make my xmas. ; -)

I've posted several times on this topic. Search on http://groups.google.com
(advanced search) with my name as the author and "coalesce" as a keyword.

-am © 2002


KR Posted on 2002-12-26 19:42:16.0Z
Reply-To: "KR" <NOJUNK.kr_syyes@europ.com.NOJUNK>
From: "KR" <NOJUNK.kr_syyes@europ.com.NOJUNK>
References: <QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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Article PK: 93399

Here are 2 stored procedures that will make your life a bit easier until you
get your wish list.

sp_dblayout <dbname>
sp_dblayoutddl <dbname>

The first one will print out the layout of your DB the way it was created,
and the second one will print out the DDL to recreate the DB device
allocations. This should help you in moving databases between servers.

1> sp_dblayout reps1_RSSD
2> go
DB Layout
DB Name Type Disk Size Device PhyName
=============== =========== =========== ========== ================
reps1_RSSD Data 50.0MB disk3 e:\disks\proj6_disk4.dat
reps1_RSSD Log 50.0MB disk4 e:\disks\proj6_disk3.dat
reps1_RSSD Data 50.0MB disk3 e:\disks\proj6_disk4.dat
reps1_RSSD Log 50.0MB disk4 e:\disks\proj6_disk3.dat
--------------- ----------- ----------- ---------- ----------------
(return status = 0)

1> sp_dblayoutddl reps1_RSSD
2> go
create database reps1_RSSD on disk3 = 50
log on disk4 = 50
go
alter database reps1_RSSD on disk3 = 50
go
alter database reps1_RSSD log on disk4 = 50
go
(return status = 0)
1>



"Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>

wrote in message news:QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi,
> I'd really like to have a solution to coalesce the devices, it's
really
> time consuming to manually find the space in the existing devices or build
> new ones. This is a problem with databases that have 150+ fragments and
> where we have to recreate them in different servers (QA, DEV,etc)
>
> In Example:
>
> Create Database Database_X on
> data38=1000
> ,data24=2000
> ,data36=300
> ,data36=300
> ,data36=400
> ,data37=500
> ,data37=500
> ,data37=500
> ,data37=500
> ,data38=500
> ,data38=500
> log on log2=100
> ,log2=100
> go
>
>
> Optimized would be:
>
> Create Database Database_X on
> data38=2000
> ,data24=2000
> ,data36=1000
> ,data37=2000
> log on log2=200
> go
>
>
> I'm sure this is not the first request to have this done. But I can't find
> anything anywhere. If anyone knows of a place I can find some info about
> this you'd make my xmas. ; -)
> Any word from Sybase to solve this?
>
> Bye
> Gaspar G.
>
>
>


Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-27 21:12:13.0Z
Reply-To: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
From: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
References: <QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <B9S71lRrCHA.287@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 14:12:13 -0700
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Article PK: 93390

Hi,
Thanks a lot for your help. I already have that part under control, what
I'd need is something that automatically reads the free space on my devices
and then generate DDL Layout for my database.

Probably that would need to connect to a "source" server to get the
information, then connect to a remote server to generate a valid DDL Layout
based on the devices and the free space on each one of them.

I know I'm probably asking for too much, that's why it's on my xmas list.


I think Sybase has to offer something to mitigate the extra effort in
maintaining databases across servers. Their competitors are ahead of them in
this area. (someone may have a different opinion but hey it's my list)


But thanks a lot for your reply.

Bye
Gaspar G

"KR" <NOJUNK.kr_syyes@europ.com.NOJUNK> wrote in message
news:B9S71lRrCHA.287@forums.sybase.com...
> Here are 2 stored procedures that will make your life a bit easier until
you
> get your wish list.
>
> sp_dblayout <dbname>
> sp_dblayoutddl <dbname>
>
> The first one will print out the layout of your DB the way it was created,
> and the second one will print out the DDL to recreate the DB device
> allocations. This should help you in moving databases between servers.
>
> 1> sp_dblayout reps1_RSSD
> 2> go
> DB Layout
> DB Name Type Disk Size Device PhyName
> =============== =========== =========== ========== ================
> reps1_RSSD Data 50.0MB disk3
e:\disks\proj6_disk4.dat
> reps1_RSSD Log 50.0MB disk4
e:\disks\proj6_disk3.dat
> reps1_RSSD Data 50.0MB disk3
e:\disks\proj6_disk4.dat
> reps1_RSSD Log 50.0MB disk4
e:\disks\proj6_disk3.dat
> --------------- ----------- ----------- ---------- ----------------
> (return status = 0)
>
> 1> sp_dblayoutddl reps1_RSSD
> 2> go
> create database reps1_RSSD on disk3 = 50
> log on disk4 = 50
> go
> alter database reps1_RSSD on disk3 = 50
> go
> alter database reps1_RSSD log on disk4 = 50
> go
> (return status = 0)
> 1>
>
>
>
> "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
> wrote in message news:QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com...
> > Hi,
> > I'd really like to have a solution to coalesce the devices, it's
> really
> > time consuming to manually find the space in the existing devices or
build
> > new ones. This is a problem with databases that have 150+ fragments and
> > where we have to recreate them in different servers (QA, DEV,etc)
> >
> > In Example:
> >
> > Create Database Database_X on
> > data38=1000
> > ,data24=2000
> > ,data36=300
> > ,data36=300
> > ,data36=400
> > ,data37=500
> > ,data37=500
> > ,data37=500
> > ,data37=500
> > ,data38=500
> > ,data38=500
> > log on log2=100
> > ,log2=100
> > go
> >
> >
> > Optimized would be:
> >
> > Create Database Database_X on
> > data38=2000
> > ,data24=2000
> > ,data36=1000
> > ,data37=2000
> > log on log2=200
> > go
> >
> >
> > I'm sure this is not the first request to have this done. But I can't
find
> > anything anywhere. If anyone knows of a place I can find some info about
> > this you'd make my xmas. ; -)
> > Any word from Sybase to solve this?
> >
> > Bye
> > Gaspar G.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-12-28 10:10:37.0Z
Message-ID: <3E0D789D.4FC1A89E@start.com.au>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:10:37 +1100
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Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:

> Thanks a lot for your help. I already have that part under control, what
> I'd need is something that automatically reads the free space on my devices
> and then generate DDL Layout for my database.

What you really should do is keep track of this as one of your
admin tasks.

> Probably that would need to connect to a "source" server to get the
> information, then connect to a remote server to generate a valid DDL Layout
> based on the devices and the free space on each one of them.

That's not really that great an idea. It shouldn't be done
automatically, anyway. There should be some intervention
permitted at least.

-am © 2002


Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-28 20:17:53.0Z
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Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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Hi Anthony,
Thank you very much for your comments.

If you have 12 DBAs and hundreds of databases in at least 90 servers
believe me, no one will track stuff like this.

I understand there should be some intervention but that was just an
idea, but the bottom line is that stuff like this doesn't make your day any
easier, personally as a DBA I rather do more interesting things than manual
allocation of the databases every time I have to create a database in an
server.

What if you don't care about the fragments (that our case since
everything is in EMC), all you want is to load database X on server S
without messing up your data and log? Is this too much?

I'm sure you can dive into the fragment allocation and hack it but at
what cost? What if by mistake you end up having a broken database, that's my
point this should be automatic and fully supported by Sybase.


Thanks for your comments.
Gaspar G.

"Anthony Mandic" <am_is_not@start.com.au> wrote in message
news:3E0D789D.4FC1A89E@start.com.au...
> Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:
>
> > Thanks a lot for your help. I already have that part under control,
what
> > I'd need is something that automatically reads the free space on my
devices
> > and then generate DDL Layout for my database.
>
> What you really should do is keep track of this as one of your
> admin tasks.
>
> > Probably that would need to connect to a "source" server to get the
> > information, then connect to a remote server to generate a valid DDL
Layout
> > based on the devices and the free space on each one of them.
>
> That's not really that great an idea. It shouldn't be done
> automatically, anyway. There should be some intervention
> permitted at least.
>
> -am © 2002


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-12-29 11:09:07.0Z
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Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:

> If you have 12 DBAs and hundreds of databases in at least 90 servers
> believe me, no one will track stuff like this.

On the contrary, its when you most need it. As an independant
consultant, I have to ensure I leave documentation on what I've
set up for anyone else who follows me. Its much the same when you
are part of a team - you have to know what one of the others has
done so you can follow up if required and its not always possible
to ask them.

> I understand there should be some intervention but that was just an
> idea, but the bottom line is that stuff like this doesn't make your day any
> easier, personally as a DBA I rather do more interesting things than manual
> allocation of the databases every time I have to create a database in an
> server.

It may not be interesting but its also not very hard. Its not
something you would do on regular basis either.

> What if you don't care about the fragments (that our case since
> everything is in EMC), all you want is to load database X on server S
> without messing up your data and log? Is this too much?
>
> I'm sure you can dive into the fragment allocation and hack it but at
> what cost? What if by mistake you end up having a broken database, that's my
> point this should be automatic and fully supported by Sybase.

One of the things I prefer to do is proper capacity planning and
an aversion for sharing fragments between databases. Using an EMC
for this shouldn't be any different. The overall approach, then,
precludes the level of fragmentation we've often seen posted here.

-am © 2002


Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-30 07:00:50.0Z
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Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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Hi Anthony,
Thanks again for your comments.
You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and planning
everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is possible
to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
something about it.

If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?

Bye
Gaspar G.


KR Posted on 2002-12-30 12:55:12.0Z
Reply-To: "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK>
From: "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK>
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Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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Article PK: 93375

Essentially what you want is a resize fragment command. Something like this,



alter database <mydb> datafragment <dfragment> resize 1G



I would definitely vote for that feature!



> If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?



I am not sure if I agree with that! I think different ventors have taken
different approaches each one with pro's and con's. If you take SQLServer
2000, each database has files allocated to it that can resize. That however
won't work well in Unix since you really want to use raw devices.



kr




"Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>

wrote in message news:MLrVrO9rCHA.161@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Anthony,
> Thanks again for your comments.
> You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and planning
> everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is
possible
> to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
> process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
> something about it.
>
> If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
> recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?
>
> Bye
> Gaspar G.
>
>


Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-30 18:05:21.0Z
Reply-To: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
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Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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Hi,

>alter database <mydb> datafragment <dfragment> resize 1G

That would be fantastic.


I am not sure if I agree with that! I think different ventors have taken

> different approaches each one with pro's and con's. If you take SQLServer
> 2000, each database has files allocated to it that can resize. That
however
> won't work well in Unix since you really want to use raw devices.
>

About SQLServer 2000 and Unix raw devices, well that is no longer the case
since you can turn DSYNC option ON for FileSystem based devices and you'd
get the same security as raw.

Some people say that raw devices will always be faster than file systems,
and that's true, Although in my experience I haven't seen any significant
difference in recent years (HPUX 10.20 raw over files did make a
difference).


Bye
Gaspar



"KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK> wrote in message
news:$M07EVAsCHA.155@forums.sybase.com...
> Essentially what you want is a resize fragment command. Something like
this,
>
>
>
> alter database <mydb> datafragment <dfragment> resize 1G
>
>
>
> I would definitely vote for that feature!
>
>
>
> > If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
>
>
>
> I am not sure if I agree with that! I think different ventors have taken
> different approaches each one with pro's and con's. If you take SQLServer
> 2000, each database has files allocated to it that can resize. That
however
> won't work well in Unix since you really want to use raw devices.
>
>
>
> kr
>
>
>
>
> "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
> wrote in message news:MLrVrO9rCHA.161@forums.sybase.com...
> > Hi Anthony,
> > Thanks again for your comments.
> > You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and
planning
> > everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is
> possible
> > to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
> > process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
> > something about it.
> >
> > If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> > Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
> > recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?
> >
> > Bye
> > Gaspar G.
> >
> >
>
>


KR Posted on 2002-12-30 18:25:15.0Z
Reply-To: "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK>
From: "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK>
References: <QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <B9S71lRrCHA.287@forums.sybase.com> <yBhSY8erCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <3E0D789D.4FC1A89E@start.com.au> <F5MrrCrrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <3E0ED7D3.B910A698@start.com.au> <MLrVrO9rCHA.161@forums.sybase.com> <$M07EVAsCHA.155@forums.sybase.com> <izVeACDsCHA.161@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:25:15 +0100
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> About SQLServer 2000 and Unix raw devices, well that is no longer the case
> since you can turn DSYNC option ON for FileSystem based devices and you'd
> get the same security as raw.
>

Ok, so we would need something like this

create database mydb on file "/data/mydb.dat" size 500M log on file
"/data/mydb_log.dat" size 200M

This would essentially be a "disk init" and an "alter database <db> on"
all in one. In this case the mydb owns the device allocated and a resize
should be fairly straight forward to implement.

alter database mydb file "/data/mydb.dat" resize 800M

which would be a "disk resize" and a resize of the device usage for mydb on
the device. I think that would be great if we can get that feature.
Definitely will vote of that!

kr

"Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
wrote in message news:izVeACDsCHA.161@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi,
>
> >alter database <mydb> datafragment <dfragment> resize 1G
>
> That would be fantastic.
>
>
> I am not sure if I agree with that! I think different ventors have taken
> > different approaches each one with pro's and con's. If you take
SQLServer
> > 2000, each database has files allocated to it that can resize. That
> however
> > won't work well in Unix since you really want to use raw devices.
> >
>
> About SQLServer 2000 and Unix raw devices, well that is no longer the case
> since you can turn DSYNC option ON for FileSystem based devices and you'd
> get the same security as raw.
>
> Some people say that raw devices will always be faster than file systems,
> and that's true, Although in my experience I haven't seen any significant
> difference in recent years (HPUX 10.20 raw over files did make a
> difference).
>
>
> Bye
> Gaspar
>
>
>
> "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK> wrote in message
> news:$M07EVAsCHA.155@forums.sybase.com...
> > Essentially what you want is a resize fragment command. Something like
> this,
> >
> >
> >
> > alter database <mydb> datafragment <dfragment> resize 1G
> >
> >
> >
> > I would definitely vote for that feature!
> >
> >
> >
> > > If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> >
> >
> >
> > I am not sure if I agree with that! I think different ventors have taken
> > different approaches each one with pro's and con's. If you take
SQLServer
> > 2000, each database has files allocated to it that can resize. That
> however
> > won't work well in Unix since you really want to use raw devices.
> >
> >
> >
> > kr
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
> > wrote in message news:MLrVrO9rCHA.161@forums.sybase.com...
> > > Hi Anthony,
> > > Thanks again for your comments.
> > > You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and
> planning
> > > everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is
> > possible
> > > to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
> > > process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
> > > something about it.
> > >
> > > If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> > > Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
> > > recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?
> > >
> > > Bye
> > > Gaspar G.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2002-12-30 11:27:40.0Z
Message-ID: <3E102DAC.92B482A@start.com.au>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:27:40 +1100
From: Anthony Mandic <am_is_not@start.com.au>
Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:

> You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and planning
> everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is possible
> to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
> process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
> something about it.

OK, you'd need to be a little more exacting in your specifications.
I'd hate to see something automatic come out that I would end up
battling against as opposed to working with.

> If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
> recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?

You can extract objects logically with SQL Backtrack. Of course,
as I mentioned previously, with proper planning beforehand there's
no real need to.

-am © 2002


Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-30 17:18:18.0Z
Reply-To: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
From: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
References: <QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <B9S71lRrCHA.287@forums.sybase.com> <yBhSY8erCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <3E0D789D.4FC1A89E@start.com.au> <F5MrrCrrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <3E0ED7D3.B910A698@start.com.au> <MLrVrO9rCHA.161@forums.sybase.com> <3E102DAC.92B482A@start.com.au>
Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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Hi Anthony,
This is a clear example of different needs/requirements/etc. Then the
best option is to let Sybase handle this automatically or manually, then
everybody is happy right?

With so many databases/servers/people and so little down time I'm trying to
automate as much as possible.
The company that I work for has recently chosen Oracle instead of Sybase so
we have to maintain the existing Sybase servers with the minimum effort and
most of planning/resources/etc. are focused on Oracle.

We have SQLBacktrack and I'll give it a try; Like 3 years ago I hit some
bugs doing exactly this.


Thanks a lot for your comments.
Gaspar G.

"Anthony Mandic" <am_is_not@start.com.au> wrote in message
news:3E102DAC.92B482A@start.com.au...
> Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:
>
> > You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and
planning
> > everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is
possible
> > to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
> > process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
> > something about it.
>
> OK, you'd need to be a little more exacting in your specifications.
> I'd hate to see something automatic come out that I would end up
> battling against as opposed to working with.
>
> > If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> > Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
> > recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?
>
> You can extract objects logically with SQL Backtrack. Of course,
> as I mentioned previously, with proper planning beforehand there's
> no real need to.
>
> -am © 2002


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2003-01-04 03:17:35.0Z
Message-ID: <3E16524F.E3BB6306@start.com.au>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:17:35 +1100
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Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:

> This is a clear example of different needs/requirements/etc. Then the
> best option is to let Sybase handle this automatically or manually, then
> everybody is happy right?

Yes. I'd prefer to maintain control over my servers rather than
allow it to be take away like MS does. Even if Sybase proceeds
down the road to self tuning and managing, I would hope that
they do so without removing the ability for DBA intervention.

> With so many databases/servers/people and so little down time I'm trying to
> automate as much as possible.
> The company that I work for has recently chosen Oracle instead of Sybase so
> we have to maintain the existing Sybase servers with the minimum effort and
> most of planning/resources/etc. are focused on Oracle.

I expect Orable will take up most of your time. At TechWave
last year, during one of the morning keynotes, Raj Nathan
interviewed a woman from Goldman Sachs who mentioned that
they manage 20,000 databases with 70 DBAs. Apart from missing
the obvious joke about needing 20,000 DBAs for 70 Orable databases,
I would think that those figures speak volumes about ASE's
RAS capabilities.

> We have SQLBacktrack and I'll give it a try; Like 3 years ago I hit some
> bugs doing exactly this.

I would expect things to have improved after 3 years but I'd
appreciate it if you shared any finding and comments. I can
also put you in touch with someone from BMC who could help
you.

-am © 2003


KR Posted on 2002-12-30 18:13:02.0Z
Reply-To: "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK>
From: "KR" <zzb26@mail.com.NOJUNK>
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Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
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>The company that I work for has recently chosen Oracle instead of Sybase so
>we have to maintain the existing Sybase servers with the minimum effort and
>most of planning/resources/etc. are focused on Oracle.

I don't work for Sybase, but I would be curious to know what some of the
reasons where for going with Oracle considering that you have some good
Sybase expertise at your company.

kr


"Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
wrote in message news:Roy9tnCsCHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Anthony,
> This is a clear example of different needs/requirements/etc. Then the
> best option is to let Sybase handle this automatically or manually, then
> everybody is happy right?
>
> With so many databases/servers/people and so little down time I'm trying
to
> automate as much as possible.
> The company that I work for has recently chosen Oracle instead of Sybase
so
> we have to maintain the existing Sybase servers with the minimum effort
and
> most of planning/resources/etc. are focused on Oracle.
>
> We have SQLBacktrack and I'll give it a try; Like 3 years ago I hit
some
> bugs doing exactly this.
>
>
> Thanks a lot for your comments.
> Gaspar G.
>
>
>
> "Anthony Mandic" <am_is_not@start.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3E102DAC.92B482A@start.com.au...
> > Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:
> >
> > > You're completely right about documenting, keeping track and
> planning
> > > everything, I couldn't agree with you any more but the fact that is
> possible
> > > to control the fragmentation doesn't change the fact that is a manual
> > > process, that's the main point of my suggestion, I wish Sybase can do
> > > something about it.
> >
> > OK, you'd need to be a little more exacting in your specifications.
> > I'd hate to see something automatic come out that I would end up
> > battling against as opposed to working with.
> >
> > > If Sybase competitors have done it then why is Sybase behind?
> > > Is this one of those times that Sybase will say: oh you can drop and
> > > recreate your objects in another database using bcp. ?
> >
> > You can extract objects logically with SQL Backtrack. Of course,
> > as I mentioned previously, with proper planning beforehand there's
> > no real need to.
> >
> > -am © 2002
>
>


Bill_Clinton NoSpam Posted on 2002-12-30 19:38:10.0Z
Reply-To: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
From: "Bill_Clinton NoSpam" <Bill_Clinton_no_spammers_account@whitehouse.com>
References: <QwGQK1QrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <B9S71lRrCHA.287@forums.sybase.com> <yBhSY8erCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <3E0D789D.4FC1A89E@start.com.au> <F5MrrCrrCHA.310@forums.sybase.com> <3E0ED7D3.B910A698@start.com.au> <MLrVrO9rCHA.161@forums.sybase.com> <3E102DAC.92B482A@start.com.au> <Roy9tnCsCHA.199@forums.sybase.com> <DIf2qGDsCHA.199@forums.sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Coalesce devices - Xmas wish list.
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:38:10 -0700
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Article PK: 93370

Hi,
Here are my comments:

> I don't work for Sybase, but I would be curious to know what some of the
> reasons where for going with Oracle considering that you have some good
> Sybase expertise at your company.

The company that I work for has decided that Oracle is a better choice for
some reasons:
Sybase has near zero market share in Oil&Gas Industry so there are no apps
written for Sybase, everything is for Oracle. Also we have changed from Geac
Smartstream/Enerstream to JDE on Oracle. So all the interfaces have to be
rewritten anyway.
The in-house developed apps will slowly move to Oracle.The vendor apps that
don't support Oracle they will certainly support MSSQL which has proved to
be a good solution.

This was not a technical decision based on "Sybase can't do this but Oracle
can"

Throughout the years we've realized that it seems to be easier to maintain
Oracle databases and not because of the products themselves but the tools
that exist on the market that support the products.

In example, there is nothing comparable in the market to Precise/InDepth
tool for Oracle in the Sybase world.You've seen how many times Sybase has
tried to come up with a decent monitoring tool but so far you still have the
same old monitor server in Sybase Central and sp_sysmon which is very good
but none will give you straight answers and sometimes you end up having more
questions. Maybe it's me asking too much but the fact that there are
products in the market that will identify the problem and suggest the
solution means that it is possible to achieve this.

Also Sybase's market share has been decreasing pretty bad, so from the
Business perspective it doesn't look any good. I mean last time I checked
Sybase didn't send me a check for standing up for them and against Oracle in
the technical meetings ;-)

On the bright side we'll keep Sybase IQ since Oracle couldn't perform
decently with very large amounts of data, but this is another example of an
unsupported database by third party vendors. So far there is nothing out
there that works with Sybase IQ, it's a product that has been on the market
for 8+ years and up until last year Veritas supported backups and that's it.
You have to see the Sybase Central (java based) and dbisql (java and
character based) that Sybase delivers with the product, sometimes I
wonder....

Anyway I'm not trying to disrespect the Sybase community or Sybase company,
I'm sorry if any of my comments seemed like that.

Bye
Gaspar


Anthony Mandic Posted on 2003-01-04 03:32:34.0Z
Message-ID: <3E1655D2.3AA5EB01@start.com.au>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:32:34 +1100
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Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd.
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Bill_Clinton NoSpam wrote:

> The company that I work for has decided that Oracle is a better choice for
> some reasons:
> Sybase has near zero market share in Oil&Gas Industry so there are no apps
> written for Sybase, everything is for Oracle. Also we have changed from Geac
> Smartstream/Enerstream to JDE on Oracle. So all the interfaces have to be
> rewritten anyway.

Hmmm, typically the usual ploy by management is to call in the
sales rep and threaten to switch to another product first. That
sometimes work (unless the sales rep can call their bluff by
knowing that the costs would be just as high as switching to
another database backend).

> The in-house developed apps will slowly move to Oracle.The vendor apps that
> don't support Oracle they will certainly support MSSQL which has proved to
> be a good solution.

Only issue there is the reliability of the hardware platform/OS.

> Throughout the years we've realized that it seems to be easier to maintain
> Oracle databases and not because of the products themselves but the tools
> that exist on the market that support the products.

That's odd. Its always been my observation that Orable requires
more DBA intervention than Sybase does.

> In example, there is nothing comparable in the market to Precise/InDepth
> tool for Oracle in the Sybase world.You've seen how many times Sybase has
> tried to come up with a decent monitoring tool but so far you still have the
> same old monitor server in Sybase Central and sp_sysmon which is very good
> but none will give you straight answers and sometimes you end up having more
> questions. Maybe it's me asking too much but the fact that there are
> products in the market that will identify the problem and suggest the
> solution means that it is possible to achieve this.

Yes, at one point Sybase were even using the same people who
developed an Orable monitor to do Q Diagnostics (later SDTC).
Its unclear why this fell thru. However, there are some good
third party products out there like Zero Impact Monitor and
White Sand's ProActive DBA.

> Also Sybase's market share has been decreasing pretty bad, so from the
> Business perspective it doesn't look any good. I mean last time I checked
> Sybase didn't send me a check for standing up for them and against Oracle in
> the technical meetings ;-)

Were you expecting one? My own observation is that Orable have
been doing real bad lately. Mostly due to the Internet bubble
bursting. Sybase had a lot less exposure to this than Orable
did. This is reflected in their relative share prices and EPS
over the last several quarters. John Chen is currently predicting
growth in the NA market for Sybase. Not sure about Orable.

> On the bright side we'll keep Sybase IQ since Oracle couldn't perform
> decently with very large amounts of data, but this is another example of an
> unsupported database by third party vendors. So far there is nothing out
> there that works with Sybase IQ, it's a product that has been on the market
> for 8+ years and up until last year Veritas supported backups and that's it.

Not even Compudigm's product? This was designed for IQ and large
scale data analysis and visualisation.

> You have to see the Sybase Central (java based) and dbisql (java and
> character based) that Sybase delivers with the product, sometimes I
> wonder....
>
> Anyway I'm not trying to disrespect the Sybase community or Sybase company,
> I'm sorry if any of my comments seemed like that.

I don't see anything wrong with it. Views need to aired and
flaws and deficiencies discussed.

-am © 2003